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Author Topic:   The first 3 chapters of Genesis
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 307 (349348)
09-15-2006 3:12 PM


I'm interested in interpretation generally and in what appear to me the bizarre interpretations I've been reading lately about what actually happens in this story.
Jar and others in another thread claim that the traditional interpretation--that God punishes Adam and Eve for eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (we can shorten this to KGE) is incorrect. They say that Adam and Eve are being sent away from Eden so that they won't eat from the Tree of Life, not because they did eat from the KGE, and this being sent away does not consititute punishment.
The problem with this interpretation is that it ignores the passage before the Tree of life is mentioned by God:
And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou?
Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I [was] naked; and I hid myself.
Gen 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou [wast] naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest [to be] with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What [is] this [that] thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.
At this moment, the punishment for eating from KGE has been declared. It will consist of Eve having her "sorrows multiplied"; it consists of her giving birth in great pain; of her being ruled by her husband.
Adam's punishment consists of his having to "eat of the ground" which is or will soon be cursed; this ground will be infested by thorns and thistles (whereas before it was not); he will sweat to get this inferior food; and he will die.
Apart from whether they remain in Eden or not, the punishment has been declared. The tone of God moreover is that of anger. Any unbiased reader can see this plainly.
This is a Bible Study topic, my first one.
Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Coragyps, posted 09-15-2006 3:38 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 4:03 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 20 by jar, posted 09-15-2006 4:29 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 31 by Percy, posted 09-15-2006 4:50 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 83 by nwr, posted 09-15-2006 11:30 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 89 by RickJB, posted 09-16-2006 6:27 AM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 90 by arachnophilia, posted 09-16-2006 6:40 AM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 188 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-19-2006 3:25 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 307 (349359)
09-15-2006 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Coragyps
09-15-2006 3:38 PM


Might it be that you get to pick the interpretation you like better?
Not if you want to be reasonable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Coragyps, posted 09-15-2006 3:38 PM Coragyps has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 307 (349369)
09-15-2006 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by ringo
09-15-2006 4:03 PM


The problem here is that you're approching Genesis as if it was a historical incident.
No, I'm approaching it as a work of literature, a story. What are the facts of the story?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 4:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 4:17 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 307 (349381)
09-15-2006 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ringo
09-15-2006 4:17 PM


Did the authors intend it as history or as an explanation?
I don't know and nobody knows.
We are trying to figure out what happens in the story. It does not matter if it fits in with somebody's idea of God or if it fits in with what is just or anything else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 4:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 4:32 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 307 (349391)
09-15-2006 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
09-15-2006 4:29 PM


Re: Well, it starts as usual with Robin misrepresenting what has been said
And where exactly did I say that they were not punished?
So they were punished? What for?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 09-15-2006 4:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 09-15-2006 4:40 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 307 (349395)
09-15-2006 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by ringo
09-15-2006 4:32 PM


If it's an explanation, then nothing "happened" in the story. If Adam and Eve were not real people, then they could not have been "punished".
We are talking about a story. In the story, they can be punished.
It's like asking, did Claudius poison Hamlet's father? Yes, he did.
Did Hamlet kill Polonius? Yes, he did.
Quite definite answers, you see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 4:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 4:47 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 307 (349396)
09-15-2006 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
09-15-2006 4:40 PM


Re: Well, it starts as usual with Robin misrepresenting what has been said
Sorry robin but your reply is unrelated to the question I asked.
Why were they punished, Jar?

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 Message 25 by jar, posted 09-15-2006 4:40 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by robinrohan, posted 09-17-2006 9:09 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 307 (349398)
09-15-2006 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
09-15-2006 4:47 PM


What does the "punishment" really mean?
We are not talking about meaning. We are talking about the facts of the story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 4:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 4:51 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 307 (349401)
09-15-2006 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
09-15-2006 4:51 PM


How can we discuss interpretation unless we discuss meaning?
There are different levels of interpretation. This thread is only concerned with the facts of the story, not the philosophical implications.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 4:51 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 5:08 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 307 (349405)
09-15-2006 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Percy
09-15-2006 4:50 PM


I agree with your interpretation
That's a first.

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 Message 31 by Percy, posted 09-15-2006 4:50 PM Percy has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 307 (349406)
09-15-2006 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
09-15-2006 5:08 PM


Then your criticism of the "bizarre interpretations" seems out of line, since those interpretations are based on meaning
Yeah, the problem is that they are based on meaning instead of looking at what the story actually relates. People come to the story with preconceived ideas as to its meaning and they twist it around to make it seem like the facts of the story are different from what they are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 5:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 5:23 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 307 (349411)
09-15-2006 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ringo
09-15-2006 5:23 PM


The facts of the story include:
Women have pain in childbirth.
People work hard for a living.
People don't like snakes.
None of those facts indicate a change in circumstances
It doesn't indicate a change? That was the whole point, that life was changed. That was the punishment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 5:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 5:37 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 307 (349413)
09-15-2006 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
09-15-2006 5:19 PM


First, before eating from the Tree of Knowledge Adam & Eve, like beasts, were incapable of either sin or morality
Then why were they punished?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 09-15-2006 5:19 PM jar has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 307 (349416)
09-15-2006 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
09-15-2006 5:37 PM


That's just your preconceived notion.
No, it's not. Anybody can see that God is changing things because of their behavior. What, you think he's saying, "Why did you do this?" "Well, I was beguiled." "Okay, you will give birth as normally, etc."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 5:37 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 5:50 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 307 (349420)
09-15-2006 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ringo
09-15-2006 5:50 PM


Eve had had no children. There can not be a "change" before the first child.
What part of that do you not understand?
So God says, "Well, Eve, you would have delivered your baby in pain, and you will still deliver your baby in pain."
Is that it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 5:50 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 5:59 PM robinrohan has replied

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