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Author Topic:   Works, Faith, & Salvation (for Iano)
jaywill
Member (Idle past 233 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 91 of 106 (272760)
12-26-2005 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by truthlover
12-26-2005 12:28 AM



Truthlover,


There is every reason to point out the difference in usage between John and Paul. (I think you're misusing the term dichotomy here, too, which I think means to make them contradictory or opposed, which I did not do, but instead gave an explanation of what common idea the both of them were expressing.)

I thought that you were highlighting a difference you perceived in that John’s concept eternal life is in the present but Paul’s is always future.

Am I correct that you were pointing out this difference between John’s usage and Paul’s usage of the phrase “eternal life?”


The fact is, that combining the usages of John and Paul regarding the phrase eternal life gives rise to the dancing around and explaining away of verses so common to Protestants,

I am not defending Reform theology or dancing around anything.


just as you are doing here. The fact is, despite all your quoting of verses, and all your definitions and arguments, even if you were right the only result would be to make Paul's letters silly.

I am not terribly impressed with your cavalier dismissal of a number of verses. I would be a little more impressed if you dealt with them one by one to point out my error. You have not done that. However, when you do get down to examining the text carefully that gets both my respect and attention a great deal more. Any wholesale “I just dismiss all these verses” is a very weak reply to me.

And there is nothing silly about Paul’s testimony or teaching concerning the matter. But I want to get on to your responses which have some substance.

Concerning Galatians 6:7-9 you write:

Ok, let's assume that you can actually make this say that if you continue to do good you will reap everlasting life on an ongoing basis during this life.

That is not exactly what I said Truthlover. I have no problem in your concept that Paul used reap eternal life to refer to the time following the second coming of Christ. I have a problem with you saying that he exclusively and only gives this meaning to eternal life.

I do take Galatians 6:7-9 on the positive side, as meaning the reward of the Lord’s coming manifestation of His kingdom.

Reaping corruption, I said, was something regarding this life before Christ’s second coming. It essentially means dying in gross spiritual immaturity or else being in that state alive when Jesus comes.

I don’t think that the Lord Jesus rewards anyone with corruption in the second coming. He is incorruptible. Corruption is the fruit reaped in the Christian’s own life if he or she will not sow to the Spirit but sows to the flesh.

The reward of Christ is either varying levels of glory and enjoyment in the millennial kingdom or varying levels of discipline or punishment durng the same time. If we sow to the flesh we will reap corruption from the fallen nature and be punished during the millennial kingdom. If we sow to the Spirit we will enjoy a fuller measure of eternal life in the kingdom of 1,000 years.

After the 1,000 years all the disciplined and punished servants have been matured and no believers any longer sow to the flesh or reap corruption. All, after the millennium, enjoy the fullest measure of eternal life in the New Jerusalem.


Standing alone, I'll admit you could take this passage this way, though it would not be the normal way to read it.

I hope my clarification above shows that I do not take the passage exactly as you characterize me as having taken it.


Now let's back up one chapter to Gal 5:19-21, where Paul says that if you practice the works of the flesh you will not inherit the kingdom of God. Do you have the kingdom of God growing in you, too, on an ongoing basis?

If you now understand more accurately how I interpret Galatians 6:7-9 I will go on to comment on Gal. 5:19-21 briefly.

Galatians 5:19-21, as you know, has two other verses which parallel its teaching. That is the teaching of Christians not given the inheritance of the kingdom of God. The three sister verses are:

Gal.5:19-21; 1 Cor. 6:9; Eph. 5:5

Paul warns believers, and re-warns believers, and re-re-warns believers that if they practice such things they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

These Christians have eternal redemption and will be in the new heaven and the new earth. But some of the Lord’s servants will be cast into the outer darkness during the millennial kingdom. They will be punished. I don’t know how long. But it cannot be much more than the duration of the 1,000 year millennial kingdom. Perhaps it may be some portion of that depending on different the situation of the disciplined Christian.

But to not inherit the kingdom of God in these verses means to not enjoy the reward of the millennial kingdom. That 1,000 year period is the manifestation of the reality of the kingdom in which the Christians are called to live in today.

There is a phase of the kingdom which is the reality. It is hidden to the eyes of the world but it has its reality. We live a life of discipline under the King’s rule in the church age. If we do then we will be rewarded with the kingdom in the way of manifestation. The hidden kingdom will then be openly manifested to the world. They will see that we are indeed co-kings with Christ because we have overcome and been victorious in the reality stage during the age of the church.

To not inhereit the kingdom of God for Christians eternally saved means to not be rewarded during the millennium but to be punished instead.

Now concerning the growth of the kingdom life. I think that it is appropriate to see growth of the kingdom by a number of the parables given by Christ. For example Mark 4:26-29:

”And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth, And he sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and lengthenes – how, he does not know. The earth bears fruit by itself: first a blade, then an ear, then the full grain in the ear. But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come” (Mark 4:26-29)

Here the kingdom of God is seen in five stages in the parable:
1. The seed sprouts and lengthens.
2. The blade appears.
3. The ear appears.
4. The full grain in the ear appears.
5. The fruit ripens and is harvested.

At each stage of growth it is still the kingdom of God. This parables definitely teaches that the kingdom of God is a matter of the growth, development, and maturity of life.

The parable of the four results of the word of the kingdom in Matthew 13:1-23 and Mark 4:1-20 is similar. The most positive level of the growth of the kingdom seed is that it will produce fruit thirtyfold or sixtyfold or a hundredfold (Matt. 13:8).

This parable therefore proves that the kingdom within is can be stunted and frustrated in its growth or can yield varying levels of positive fruit to the Lord Who sowed the word of the kingdom into people.


Now, rather than list any more such verses, let me just say that you probably know the whole list of "if" verses, and warning verses that say Paul might be disqualified, the Sardisians won't walk with him in white without overcoming, etc.

I would ask you not to dismiss verses so easily. We should be thankful that crucial truths in the Bible are stated often in many ways in many places.

Now briefly, because this is a discussion forum and not a space to write a book chapter – The overcomers in Sardis are rewarded during the millennial kingdom as I discribed before.

In fact all of the statements about reward given to the overcomers are related to the millennial kingdom. They are not rewards related to eternity. They are phrased relating to dispensational reward or dispensational punishment. These will be dispensed during the 1,000 year millennial kingdom (Rev. 20) prior to the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth with the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21,22).


Trying to fit John's use of eternal life into Paul's letters produces the battles between the eternal security folks and the you-can-lose-it folks, all of them having verses they use and verses they have to do doctrinal dances on. They can't just read and believe what's written; they have to do "exegesis" and explain this exceptionally difficult book, the Bible.

The troubles arise on two fronts related to the battles between Arminian theology and Calvinist theology.

1.) Calvinists theology tries to show that the Lord’s servants who are punished are in fact false believers who were never redeemed.
2.) Arminian theology tries to show from the same verses that a Christian can lose their salvation.

What I am saying to you is neither of these two assumptions. I am teaching that a Christian who is indeed a true believer can be dispensationally punished during the age immediately following the second coming of Christ. Such a punishment of not inheriting the manifestation of the kingdom of God is temporary. It cannot last more than 1,000 years.


I don't find it that way at all. I look at Paul's usage of eternal life, and I read him for what he said. I look at John's, and I read him for what he said. And I create no dichotomy at all, but an understanding of what both said and how they both agree, in such a way that no doctrinal dances are necessary at all.

When one is born of God he cannot be unborn of God. My son is my son regardless of what he does. He has my life in him. Now we may not be on very good terms for a season. But he is still my son.

It is the same with the sons of God. God can beget sons and yet still have a very wide range of scope in order to perfect them. He can discipline them in many different ways as a wise Father. All such discipline is not the taking away of the gift of eternal redemption. The problem with many Christians is that whenever they see a verse on the discipline of believers they assume that this could only mean a loss of eternal salvation.

With them they seem no to notice Revelation chapter 20 of the millennial kingdom preceeds the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth with the New Jerusalem. The millennial kingdom age is set up as an incentive for those who have been saved by grace to cooperate to mature in life.


1.) Do you believe James when he says that a man is not justified by faith alone?

It is not hard to understand if you realize that “saved” can be taken to mean more than escape from perdition. If one’s personality is still so natural and fleshly, doesn’t he need to be saved from his temper, his lust, his disposition, his immaturity?

James is addressing this kind of being saved out of the old way of living even though one is saved forever by his faith in Jesus.


2.) (Assuming you agree with Rom 3:28 without explanation), how do you explain James 2:24, which is James statement that people are justified by works?

It is not hard when we consider not only man’s need by God’s need. From the standpoint of only our need, we think we need to be saved from eternal perdition. And of course we do. But God is not happey to have many spiritual babies who are saved from the lake of fire but still live out the old life in the flesh. His purpose calls for us not only being saved from perdition but being saved to express Christ in our daily living.

Unless we think that all we need to be saved from perdition, the New Testament takes a great deal of time to point out in many ways that God needs our living to be saved into expressing Christ.

Those who cooperate with this being brought on to maturity will be rewarded. Those who do not will be disciplined by the wise Father.

In different ways Paul, James, John, and Peter address this deeper salvation of maturing into a living which expresses Jesus Christ.
Being born again is simply not an end in itself. Just like being born in a natural sense is for the continued growth and maturity of human life, so the new birth as a gift is for the growth of the divine life within man unto maturity.

That is all I can write this evening.

This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-26-2005 02:09 AM

This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-26-2005 02:19 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by truthlover, posted 12-26-2005 12:28 AM truthlover has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by truthlover, posted 12-27-2005 9:15 AM jaywill has responded

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 2351 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 92 of 106 (273171)
12-27-2005 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by jaywill
12-26-2005 2:06 AM


I thought that you were highlighting a difference you perceived in that John’s concept eternal life is in the present but Paul’s is always future.

Am I correct that you were pointing out this difference between John’s usage and Paul’s usage of the phrase “eternal life?”

lol. Well, this helps me understand some of our problems. There's really a great lack when people aren't face to face.

I don't understand this question. I think the answer to your question is yes, but I don't know why you're asking it. What did I say that prompted this question?

That is not exactly what I said Truthlover. I have no problem in your concept that Paul used reap eternal life to refer to the time following the second coming of Christ. I have a problem with you saying that he exclusively and only gives this meaning to eternal life.

I think every time Paul uses eternal life, he is speaking of a reward to the judgment. Did you notice that each verse you quoted to refer to the life of the King being in a disciple in this lifetime, Paul only used the word life, never eternal life. You point out repeatedly that this life of Y'shua must be eternal life and not some other life.

I am not cavalierly dismissing these verses. Basically, I agree that the life of the King is not some other life than is given to the disciple at the judgment. It's the same life, and that's why John calls it eternal life, even in this life when it's the possession of the Son only, and not the disciple. However, since we're talking about Paul's usage of the term eternal life, I have to point out that all your verses don't use that term. Each one uses just the word life. That's not an accident.

When Paul says "eternal life," he's talking about a reward at the judgment. That's what he does, whether or not we agree that it's the same sort of life during this lifetime.

In the end, though, the reason I am arguing this is specifically because of Gal 6:7-9. My main point is that Paul is using eternal life as a reward at the judgment in Gal 6:8,9. Aren't you disagreeing with that?

These Christians have eternal redemption and will be in the new heaven and the new earth. But some of the Lord’s servants will be cast into the outer darkness during the millennial kingdom. They will be punished. I don’t know how long. But it cannot be much more than the duration of the 1,000 year millennial kingdom. Perhaps it may be some portion of that depending on different the situation of the disciplined Christian.

Since Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:3-5, and 1 Cor 6:9,10 don't say anything like this, you're going to have to explain why you believe this. Personally, I think this whole explanation is a way to make Gal 5:19-21 and the others NOT say something, rather than a conclusion drawn from anything the Scriptures do say.

But to not inherit the kingdom of God in these verses means to not enjoy the reward of the millennial kingdom.

Why wouldn't this be eternal? Why is the kingdom only the millennium spoken of in the Revelation?

May I suggest that Paul, in his letters, wouldn't have known anything about this millennial kingdom? The Revelation came later, and there's no indication Paul knew anything about a millennial kingdom, literal or not literal, when he was writing.

Now concerning the growth of the kingdom life. I think that it is appropriate to see growth of the kingdom by a number of the parables given by Christ. For example Mark 4:26-29:

It would be easy to "over-interpret" a parable, making too much of one-to-one correlations, when a general message is being communicated. In this example of yours, that's not a problem, but I'd be very hesitant, in general, to get too specific with an interpretation of a parable.

In the case of Mark 4:26-29, however, even with your interpretation (which I don't have any problem with), the kingdom is growing, but not inside of anyone. There's a harvest at the end of the growth, which I would interpret to be people. So I see people in the kingdom here, not the kingdom in people.

This parable therefore proves that the kingdom within is can be stunted and frustrated in its growth or can yield varying levels of positive fruit to the Lord Who sowed the word of the kingdom into people.

I do believe that the Word grows in people. I'm not arguing against growth, if that's what you think.

I've been pretty much sticking to one issue in my discussion with you, which is that Paul believed that a person enters the kingdom through a judgment of works; that he does not believe "faith only" when it concerns the judgment, entering the kingdom, or inheriting/reaping eternal life.

In fact all of the statements about reward given to the overcomers are related to the millennial kingdom. They are not rewards related to eternity.

You're going to have to give some reason for this. I don't think there's anything in Paul's writings to suggest this is true.

As an example, Phil 3:8-12 talks about something Paul is striving for, and that something is the resurrection of the dead. The reward spoken of in Gal 6:9,10 is eternal life, not avoiding punishment for 1,000 years. The same is true of Rom 2:6,7, that iano argues is only for unbelievers, but I think just agrees with Gal 6 and every other verse on the judgment in Paul's writings. There's just nothing in James, the Gospels, or Paul about millennial punishments, just a final salvation or not a final salvation. ("He who endures to the end will be saved.") Y'shua says the same thing in John 5, saying that those who do good will resurrect to life, and those who have done evil to death.

Really, all of that is pretty simple. There is a judgment of works, and those who patiently continued to do good will receive life, and those who disobeyed God will receive death. There's just nothing in the Scriptures that necessitates complicating that.

James is addressing this kind of being saved out of the old way of living even though one is saved forever by his faith in Jesus.

I think there's every indication you have this completely backwards, and Paul would be horrified. He spent all that time in Romans and Galatians just to say that you will not become righteous by works. You can't get out of your old way of life by works. You can only get out of your old way of life by faith in Y'shua, because you need a new heart and new life, and that can't be worked for. Grace is indeed a gift, obtained by simple faith.

If that's true, and I think that it's the basic Gospel of faith, then James couldn't have been talking about becoming saved out of your old way of life by works. Thus, he would be talking about being saved eternally by works, just as Paul does repeatedly.

It is not hard to understand if you realize that “saved” can be taken to mean more than escape from perdition.

I think I've been making this point all along.

When one is born of God he cannot be unborn of God.

But he can die, and it's warned about regularly (Rom 8:12,13, for example).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by jaywill, posted 12-26-2005 2:06 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2005 3:07 PM truthlover has not yet responded
 Message 94 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2005 4:22 PM truthlover has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 233 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 93 of 106 (273260)
12-27-2005 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by truthlover
12-27-2005 9:15 AM


Dispensational Reward and Punishment

I don't understand this question. I think the answer to your question is yes, but I don't know why you're asking it. What did I say that prompted this question?

It’s not important. I think we are in sync now.


I think every time Paul uses eternal life, he is speaking of a reward to the judgment. Did you notice that each verse you quoted to refer to the life of the King being in a disciple in this lifetime, Paul only used the word life, never eternal life.

I noticed the additional word “eternal” is added in two or three notable cases upon which reward is being spoken of. I see your point in that.

But my point is that John shows that “life” and “eternal life” are interchangeable terms in verses like John 3:36 and First John 5:12. If John uses ”eternal life” and ”life” interchangeable, why should I consider that Paul does not or would not?

And here is an instance where Paul uses the phrase ”eternal
life”
and he obviously is not talking about reward but rather ” gift:”

”For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 6:23)

This Pauline verse is definitely not ”eternal life " as reward but as gift.


You point out repeatedly that this life of Y'shua must be eternal life and not some other life.
I am not cavalierly dismissing these verses. Basically, I agree that the life of the King is not some other life than is given to the disciple at the judgment. It's the same life, and that's why John calls it eternal life, even in this life when it's the possession of the Son only, and not the disciple.

When John uses the term in First John 5:12 it IS in the possession of the disciples:

” … God gave to us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; He who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.”

As long as the disciples have the Son they have the eternal life. It is impossible for the disciples to have the Son but not have the eternal life at the same time.

Now I admit that certain verses seem to contradict that when we get the flavor of “eternal life” as something awaiting us in the future. But the Lord said that He came that we may not only have life but have it abundantly – John 10:10. This kind of teaching shows that our enjoyment of eternal life can deepen and encrease unto greater and greater abundance. What we foretaste now of eternal life we can be rewarded with a fuller taste in the fuller.


However, since we're talking about Paul's usage of the term eternal life, I have to point out that all your verses don't use that term.

Okay. Initially they did not. Then I recently included Romans 6:23 - ”the gift of God is eternal life”.

I think you must have known that that verses existed if you beforehand searched out all of the Pauline passages explicitly mentioning ”eternal life”. It forbids any assumption that explicit use of ”eternal life” is used by Paul only in the sense of reward.

However, as I said before, I think John and Paul use “life” and “eternal life” interchangeably.


Each one uses just the word life. That's not an accident.
When Paul says "eternal life," he's talking about a reward at the judgment.

This is not true of Romans 6:23.


That's what he does, whether or not we agree that it's the same sort of life during this lifetime.
In the end, though, the reason I am arguing this is specifically because of Gal 6:7-9. My main point is that Paul is using eternal life as a reward at the judgment in Gal 6:8,9.

In that instance I agree with you.


Aren't you disagreeing with that?

In Gal. 6:7-9 I agree with your interpretation. I would caution you not to stretch that instance to cover every instance written by Paul.


Me:
These Christians have eternal redemption and will be in the new heaven and the new earth. But some of the Lord’s servants will be cast into the outer darkness during the millennial kingdom. They will be punished. I don’t know how long. But it cannot be much more than the duration of the 1,000 year millennial kingdom. Perhaps it may be some portion of that depending on different the situation of the disciplined Christian.

You:
Since Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:3-5, and 1 Cor 6:9,10 don't say anything like this, you're going to have to explain why you believe this. Personally, I think this whole explanation is a way to make Gal 5:19-21 and the others NOT say something, rather than a conclusion drawn from anything the Scriptures do say.

I think that that is a perfectly legitimate request. It should be looked into. There are many ways I could use to prove this. But for today I would draw your attention to one passage in particular – First Timothy 2:10-13:

”Therefore I endure all things for sake of the chosen ones, that they themselves also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Faithful is the word: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him.

If we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us;

If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”

This is a passage to Christians for whom the matter of eternal redemption has been settled. This is also a passage about endurance and the reward for it. That reward being to reign with Christ as in Revelation 20:4,6.

If like faithful Paul, endure, we will reign with Christ. Reigning necessarily implies the kingdom of God. However if we deny the Lord, even though we are redeemed Christians He will deny us the reward to reign with Him.

Denying the Lord would come about because the Christian has turned faithless. No one who is faithful and enduring will deny the Lord Jesus. But one who becomes faithless may do so.

Verse 13 says that if we are faithless (i.e. denying the Lord), He, however, remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. I take this to mean that though He deny us the reward to reign with Him, He cannot deny that He has imparted His Spirit and His life into us. He cannot deny Himself. The faithless one who did not endure, will still have the eternal life.

Now this is the plain teaching as I see it. Many parables substantiate this interpretation:

In Matthew 25:14-30 the first faithful servant is rewarded to be set over many things. He was faithful over a few and is reward to be set over many things after the Lord comes back. The second servant also is rewarded to be set over many things. To the first and second servant the Lord says “Well, done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful over a few things; I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master” (13:21,23)

Then the third unfaithful servant comes along. He hid his master’s talent fearing that the master was too strict and the demand too heavy. He is not rewarded. The slothful slave’s conversation with the Master goes like this:

”… Master, I knew about you, that you are a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow. And I was afraid and went off and hid your talent in theearth; behold, you have what is yours.

And his master answered and said to him, Evil and slothful slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I did not winnow, therefore you should have deposited my money with the money changers; and when I came, I would have recovered what is mine with interest. Take away the talent from him and give it to him who has ten talents.

For to every one who has, more shall be given, and he shall abound; but from him who does not have, even that which he has shall betaken away from him.

And cast out the useless slave into the outer darkness. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.”

Now before I go on let me first say that I don’t have space to comment exhaustively on every detail of this parable. I am only highlighting certain aspects of it.

Secondly, this parable shows one aspect of our relationship with Christ the Lord, not the one and only aspect. In this aspect the Lord Jesus is a strict business man investing His riches in His servants and expecting to make a profit. Yes the Lord is the loving Savior. But this parable is not about that. It is about His investing in His servants to obtain something for His coming kingdom.

The slothful slave was not faithful and was cast into outer darkness. If you say that he was not a true Christian, this does not make sense. He is every bit the same as the other two servants. Only he is not faithful.

If on the other hand you say that he is a true Christian and the outer darkness into which he is cast is eternal punishment, then you can throw the gospel of grace out of the window entirely. Because this would prove that one is eternally saved from damnation because of the work he does for the Lord. This flies in the face of too much of the New Testament – (John 3:16; Eph. 2:8; Titus 3:5) – whosever believes has eternal life; salvation is the gift of God; salvation is not of works of righteousness which we have done. And many many other verses could reinforce that by grace we are saved through faith.

So then I submit that the outer darkness is not perdition but the loss of the reward plus punishment to Christians. And it is temporary in nature because though the servant is faithless Christ cannot deny Himself (2 Tim. 2:10-13).

I definitely think that we should understand Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:3-5, and 1 Cor 6:9,10 in this light. To not inherit the kingdom of God is to fare as the slothul servant of the Lord or the believer of the Lord who does not endure but becomes faithless to deny the Lord.


Me:
But to not inherit the kingdom of God in these verses means to not enjoy the reward of the millennial kingdom.

You:
Why wouldn't this be eternal? Why is the kingdom only the millennium spoken of in the Revelation?

The kingdom of God does indeed extend into eternity. But this portion of it during the 1,000 years is all about reward and not gift.

It is like this the wise Father saves many people by grace as a gift. He wants them to grow in that divine life that they have received. He knows that some children will cooperate to grow and some children will be complacent that they need not grow. Since they are saved they can still foolishly enjoy the world and the old life.
As an incentive for the saved to cooperate to be conformed to the image of the Son of God, He establishes a period of reward and discipline BEFORE the eternal age comes. That is what Revelation 20 is about. Six times it says that the faithful saints will reign with Christ for 1,000 years.

So this reward is spoken of by Paul as the reward of eternal life. He means a fuller and richer enjoyment of the eternal life which we are to take heed to today.

Since eternal blessing is the gift in grace and not of works, the servants punished in the outer darkness must be perfected during that time. This should be considered like a naughty student having to attend summer school to make up lessons he should have learned during the regular semester.

Eventually, God has a way to make those who do not care care. All will be matured and perfected by the time of the end of the millennial kingdom. And the reign of Christ continues into the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth with the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 and 22 in which all the saved participate. ”If we are faithless, He remains faithful, He cannot deny Himself.”

I will continue commenting on the rest of your replies in another post.

This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-27-2005 03:15 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by truthlover, posted 12-27-2005 9:15 AM truthlover has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 233 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 94 of 106 (273274)
12-27-2005 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by truthlover
12-27-2005 9:15 AM


Closing Statements from me

May I suggest that Paul, in his letters, wouldn't have known anything about this millennial kingdom? The Revelation came later, and there's no indication Paul knew anything about a millennial kingdom, literal or not literal, when he was writing.

Paul’s revelation was extensive. It was more than he could hardly bare. God had to give him a thorn in the flesh to humble him to not be exalted by the abundance of revelation.

Both Revelation and Philppians mention ”the book of life” (Rev. 20:12 compare Phil. 4:3)

And Paul’s perception into Daniel’s prophecy was inspired as we can see in his writings to the church of the Thessalonians. And in First Corinthians 15 he elaborates on a period in which all of Christ’s enemies must be put under His feet until He delivers up the kingdom to His Father. So I believe that Paul was not ignorant of the millennial reign.


Me:

Now concerning the growth of the kingdom life. I think that it is appropriate to see growth of the kingdom by a number of the parables given by Christ. For example Mark 4:26-29:

You:
It would be easy to "over-interpret" a parable, making too much of one-to-one correlations, when a general message is being communicated. In this example of yours, that's not a problem, but I'd be very hesitant, in general, to get too specific with an interpretation of a parable.
In the case of Mark 4:26-29, however, even with your interpretation (which I don't have any problem with), the kingdom is growing, but not inside of anyone.

Sure it is truthlover. Compare Revelation chapter 14. You have firstfruits and you have harvest. And it is speaking of the saved.

I might say that it is more of a corporate growth in the Mark passage than the growth in a particular individual. But it is still growth within a corporate group of people down through the church age.

But if you don’t think the parable is appropriate how about the plain teaching of Second Corinthians 3:17,18?

“And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit” (2 Cor. 3:17,18)

This transformation is from one degree of glory to another to another – successively by degress until conformation to the image of the Lord. This transformation is carried out by the Lord Spirit. And it is the Spirit who gives life (2 Cor. 3:6). He is the last Adam who became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45) to transform us into the image of Christ.

Degrees of expression, i.e. expressing the Lord Jesus, are degrees of the growth of the eternal life within the beleivers. If behooves them to turn theuir hearts to the Lord and log more and more time beholding Him and reflecting Him for this organic transformation by the Spirit of life.

In different words you have the same matter as in the Markian parable of the growing kingdom seed.


I do believe that the Word grows in people. I'm not arguing against growth, if that's what you think.

Splendid Truthlover. Hold on to that because many brothers and sisters really don’t see that very well in today’s degraded Christianity.


I've been pretty much sticking to one issue in my discussion with you, which is that Paul believed that a person enters the kingdom through a judgment of works; that he does not believe "faith only" when it concerns the judgment, entering the kingdom, or inheriting/reaping eternal life.

I agree with you that “faith only” is not the bases of the reward of the kingdom – which reward Paul sometimes refers to as ”eternal life”

This He received from the Lord Jesus Himself who also spoke of repaying every man.

”For the Son of Man is to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will repay each man according to his doings” (Matt. 16:27)

”Behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me to render to each one as his work is” (Rev. 22:12)

It is not always easy to understand the Bible. When I disciple young believers I first give them a firm foundation in Christ as our eternal security. We who believe into Him will never perish. Then we have to go on from the milk of the word to the more solid food.

And that more solid food is that though our past sins have been forgiven and forgotten by God, we must account to Him at His judgment seat. We must account to Him what we did with our new life in Christ from the time we were saved.

It is here that even the merciful can obtain mercy for mercy triumphs over judgment.

”Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy” (Matt. 5:7)

As strict as the Lord is as the King of the kingdom, He still will show mercy with those who have themselves been merciful.

In the kingdom we should be strict with ourselves and accomondating towards others. But woe to us Christians if we are easy on ourselves but exacting and unforgiving with others. As we have judged then, He also will judge us.

In fact all of the statements about reward given to the overcomers are related to the millennial kingdom. They are not rewards related to eternity.

You:
You're going to have to give some reason for this. I don't think there's anything in Paul's writings to suggest this is true.

As an example, Phil 3:8-12 talks about something Paul is striving for, and that something is the resurrection of the dead.

”If perhaps I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead” (Phil. 3:11 Recovery Version – See www.recoveryversion.org)

This term ”out-resurrection” means the outstanding resurrection, the extra-resurrection, which will be a prize to the overcoming saints. All believers who are dead in Christ will participate in the resurrection from the dead at the Lord’s coming back (1 Thes, 4:16; 1 Cor. 15:52). But the overcoming saints will enjoy an extra, outstanding portion of that resurrection.

To arrive at the out-resurrection indicates that our entire being has been gradually and continually resurrected. God first resurrected our deadened spirit (Eph. 2:5-6); then from our spirit He proceeds to resurrect our soul (Rom. 8:6) and our mortal body (Rom. 8:11), until our entire being – spirit, soul, and body – is fully resurrected out of our old being by and with His life.

This is a process in life through which we must pass and a race that we must run until we arrive at the out-resurrection as the prize.

Hence, the out-resurrection should be the goal and distination of our Christian life. We can reach this goal only by being conformed to thedeath of Christ (Phil. 3:10), by living a crucified life. In the death of Christ we are processed in resurrection from the old creation to the new.

Refering back to the three servants – the two rewareded ones, we might say were in the out-resurrection (if it be that they died in Christ). And the disciplined one was not in this outstanding resurrection of reward. He needs further growth and discipline during the time in which it would be normal for the servants to be enjoying the kingdom reward.

What I have just said is by way of application. I don’t mean that anything in the parable tells us whether the slaves of the Lord there are living or resurrected to live when He comes.


The reward spoken of in Gal 6:9,10 is eternal life, not avoiding punishment for 1,000 years. The same is true of Rom 2:6,7, that iano argues is only for unbelievers, but I think just agrees with Gal 6 and every other verse on the judgment in Paul's writings.

Galatians is spoken to Christians who cannot perish for eternity. I would reject any teaching which teaches that once one has believed into the Lord, been redeemed and regenerated, will perish forever afterwards for anything whatsoever.

So, God not being mocked, is the tough lesson needed to be learned by millions of slothul and world loving believers. The lesson is not an eternal one. If you think it is then we have a difference of belief which we will not resolve in many discussions. I simply reject that one redeemed by Christ can perish forever.

On the other hand God is a Judge. Just like the worldly judges have a considerable latitude in disciplines that they can administer, why should we think that God the judge of all the earth, would have His hands tied?

The bottom line as far as I am concerned is this: God our wise Father and Judge of all the earth, can save people for eternity and yet still have plenty of latitude to reward or discipline His children for their perfection.

In every instance where you can point out the fact of God dealing negatively with His redeemed people after the second coming of Christ, the assumption of eternal punishment is just that, an assumption.


There's just nothing in James, the Gospels, or Paul about millennial punishments, just a final salvation or not a final salvation. ("He who endures to the end will be saved.") Y'shua says the same thing in John 5, saying that those who do good will resurrect to life, and those who have done evil to death.

I disagree. There may not be the mention of 1,000 years per se. That is all.

Many Christians re-hash again and again and again the matter of “How do we get saved?” This is by far the most frequently talked about topic in Bible studies. It seems that some believers spend their whole lives arguing this one thing – “How do we get SAVED?”

You can believe what you would like to believe. The matter of Christ Himself as my eternal security is settled long ago. I have moved on from there. If you have a salvation and eternal life by works, that is your business. But I won’t go along with you on it. Nor will I expend too much time to change your view.

If that is the gospel you believe, that is between you and the Lord Jesus. I still love you as a brother in Christ if you are truly a brother in the Lord.

Having said that. I think I will probably let you and IANO continue hashing out what you were talking about.

Agape.

This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-27-2005 04:24 PM

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by truthlover, posted 12-27-2005 9:15 AM truthlover has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by truthlover, posted 12-27-2005 4:43 PM jaywill has responded

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 2351 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 95 of 106 (273277)
12-27-2005 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by jaywill
12-27-2005 4:22 PM


Hi, jaywill,

I can't give you a fair reading, much less a fair answer, today, and that's likely to be true till this weekend. I'm our head bookkeeper, and we're consolidating some corporations into an LLC, which means dissolving the corporations, determining FMV on all their assets, transferring them to the new LLC, determining Section 1251 ordinary income and capital gains on them, electing the LLC's tax status, getting signed member agreements on all the members, transferring Worker's Comp and bank accounts, etc.

I'm not expecting to be thinking real well till I get a day off. Then it's start on our taxes, take a three week break to visit a pastor in India and his awesome orphanage system, and then back to taxes. I think after this weekend, I have to back off and probably drop all my discussions until tax season is over. But I'd like to cover a couple things with you this weekend before I quit.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2005 4:22 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2005 6:00 PM truthlover has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 233 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 96 of 106 (273306)
12-27-2005 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by truthlover
12-27-2005 4:43 PM


Take care Truthlover,

Thanks for the fellowship.
That was probably my last post on the thread.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by truthlover, posted 12-27-2005 4:43 PM truthlover has responded

Replies to this message:
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 2351 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 97 of 106 (273789)
12-29-2005 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by jaywill
12-27-2005 6:00 PM


Jaywill,

I didn't find your comment about being done on the subject until later, after I'd posted.

No problem. I'll read all you wrote this weekend; maybe I don't need to respond, either. Thanks for the very civil response either way.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by jaywill, posted 12-27-2005 6:00 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 233 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 98 of 106 (275789)
01-04-2006 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by truthlover
12-22-2005 9:19 AM


Re: Onto Galatians...almost
truthlover writes:

In the first half of Romans, he is addressing a Jewish misconception (about justification). He didn't have to address the same misconception about the judgment, which is a very simple concept.

I asked why there is no equivilent, in-depth, teaching on second salvation by works - as opposed to judgement (which doesn't necessarily result in condemnation). The idea that our works will effect our final salvation is extremely complex given how important it is. Nothing this vital can be said to be simple. It is vital that we understand it more than anything else. Surely?

- Every justified person will disobey the overarching principle of "doing unto others" at some point. Where is the cut off point? There is none given. So how can one know if one is even close to a pass mark? If I get drunk once does that make me a drunkard. Or if I lust 10 times does that make me an adulterer?

- Persevere, continue in the faith, strive to enter. There is nothing said about any failure at anytime to achieve this as being acceptable. It is impossible to do this every second of the day however. So the best one can do is to try to persevere, try to continue, try to strive. Except the words 'try' and 'trying' only appear a couple of times in the whole NT and never in connection with salvation.

The concept of justification by the blood of the King is simple, but it is not simple to explain.

Nobody understands justification by faith. We can only believe it. All we know about it is that God decided that that was the way it would be. There is nothing intrinsically understandable about justification to our minds. Witness folk here who repeatedly fail to come to terms with someone else dying on our account. "Unfair" is the cry heard when an attempt is made to explain it. Safe to say that if it cannot be explained easily the simple it is not.

The disciple has two extremes to avoid. One is to turn the grace of God into licentiousness, and the other is to begin to live in "do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," which is of no value against the work of the flesh.

I agree

The one thing everyone agreed on, and that wasn't difficult to explain, was that everyone would stand before the judgment seat of the King, and they would be judged according to their works, whether good or bad.

There will be greater or lesser in the kingdom of heaven. On what basis will the grading be made if not works. What else is there with which to base such a grading. A mans works will be tested by fire and they may be burned up as straw - yet he himself will be saved. He may arrive with empty bags but arrive he can. Not all judgment will result in damnation. Your equating judgement to second salvation by works. Which is not the same thing. Why no established doctrine of salvation by works

Paul does address this, pretty extensively, but not in the long explanations that he devotes to obtaining righteousness through faith, because it wasn't as difficult or controversial.

Again, its second salvation by works not judgement I was wondering about. Say for example a person can be saved purely by faith. They can still be judged by their works and their heavenly reward issued on the basis of it. Salvation can be a citizenship issue that is cleared up without works and works then judged: the citizen of heaven gets levels of reward, the citizen of hell level of punishment

Would this not fit better given the emphasis Paul lays on justification/works? That which is vital gets the rigorous coverage, that which is less vital gets less rigorous coverage.

iano writes:

To clarify: what I hold is what the first half of Romans explains and exposits: the doctrine of justification by faith and the results thereof. This is not pretend justification. It is real. Although righteousness is not the same thing as justification it does go hand in hand with it.

truthlover writes:

Until you are willing to say that the unrighteous are also unjustified, and that they have no inheritance in the kingdom of God, then this is just empty bleating on your part.

??

A person who is justified is also declared righteous, receives the holy spirit, has eternal life, have been (in eternity) /will be (in time) glorifed etc. COnsider it a Christmas stocking: 1 gift containing many packages. Not all packages are the same however. Am I being unclear?

You say this when it suits you, and you back off whenever the rubber meets the road. You believe in a justification, where God calls a person righteous even if they have no noticeable good works or change in their life at all, and that is pure pretense, not justification at all.

Justification as you (kind of) admit, is a past-tense occurance. It has happened. Galatians 3:3 doesn't say anything about justification so supports not the idea of it being a process. I can't think of a case where justification is ever referred to as a process. If a person is declared righteous as a result of being justified then that has happened too. And it is sinners who are justified. No one can have works to show for it.

If justification is past tense and is by faith. If it is nowhere described as a process then what has it to do with works? "Pure pretense" and "rubber meets the road" are strong statements - but is there anything of substance to reinforce them?

If you don't believe it, then say it where it matters. Tell us that all drunks, adulterers, and divisive people are unrighteous and unjustified and will never attain to the kingdom of God unless they repent.

What is a drunk? What is an adulterer? What is a divisive person? At what number of transgressions does a person become one of these things? Once, twice, a thousand times? Have you lusted in the last 10 years. Does that make you an adulterer? For that matter, what does repent mean?

Justification and being declared righteousness has nothing to do with whether you did or do these things. A drunk who repents and is justified may or may not give up drink. Does that mean he will be unjustfied if he fails to stop. I don't see anywhere in scripture that says that jusfication is reveresible. And given Pauls treatment of it if it were the case then he surely would have covered it.

Romans 8:30 "....and whom he called, then he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified"

Just to remind ourselves that it is all of him, our justification. Not us or our faith.

When we started all these discussions, you were saying that justified persons might never change at all in any noticeable way to them or others until maybe even after they die, yet they would be justified, and thus "righteous."

And I hold that that is the case. Justification is not a process. It is a positional thing. Just like citizenship and heirship, justification is a legal, forensic act. A bad citizen, a bad heir are no less citizens and heirs than good ones. Legal/forensic.

The process of 'improved behaviour' will likely arise from a process which is set in train called sanctification. But some grow faster than others, some have further to come from. Some are lazy and resistant, some are Christians-on-vacation some Christians-in-the-trenches. All justified however.

I changed dramatically in view and action since being born again but the world isn't going to notice by and large. If it had my pre-born again twin beside me reacting to things alongside me in the way I would have then, then it would spot the difference. But some car driver not getting his mirror kicked off by a road-raged biker Ian won't notice anything. He has nothing to compare with

You're not very good at applying your own context issues to yourself. Gal 5:5 goes on to say, in v. 6, "...for neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith WORKING through love."

Galatians goes on to say " For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision..." It is in Christ that this happens, Paul is pointing out. He is telling them that it is not justification/righteousness by works of the law but by being in Christ. Faith through love. And where does this faith come from? From God. God gives the faith. And when he does the works will follow. We are ever-dependant on God for anything that we do.

That is the difference in our view TL. I have no objection to works and that works must follow otherwise faith is dead (or never was). But God is the one who begins the works in use, God provides the faith necessary to do it. It is all of him. Your version of events seems to put the onus on us to do stuff. But it is always "by the Spirit" "through Christ" "By the grace of God". God is the one who makes it possible. If he didn't then nothing would happen: no justification, no declared righteous, no salvation of any kind. Nada.

So. If we are dependant on God for our salvation, how can we be dependent on us?

"I buffet my body and bring it into subjection, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified."

Do you think that "disqualified" means loss of salvation? If so can you show so? This can fit as easily into loss of heavenly reward as it can loss of salvation. I agree obedience is important in that respect for a believer. Not for salvation but for reward. The reward is my pleasure at Gods pleasure in me. Oh to hear "Oh good and faithful servant" What could be better. That is to be sought - even if I don't act like I want it at all times... "Oh wretched man that I am (not anymore)"

There is an ongoing growth, an adding to faith and a being made perfect (2 Pet 1:5 & Gal 3:3), and while I do believe that's part of the justification process, we've got enough to argue about without that. We'll just leave it as using justification only for the past tense event.

I'd prefer to put this to bed. TL It may become important at some stage. I agree there is a process of being made holy and growing in faith etc. I believe it is very important. It is all over the NT. But we cannot tie justification before God to that process without biblical warrant. And I hold there is none


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by truthlover, posted 12-22-2005 9:19 AM truthlover has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 2:12 AM iano has responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4840 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 99 of 106 (276612)
01-07-2006 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by iano
01-04-2006 2:47 PM


Re: Onto Galatians...almost
iano writes:

Every justified person will disobey the overarching principle of "doing unto others" at some point. Where is the cut off point? There is none given. So how can one know if one is even close to a pass mark? If I get drunk once does that make me a drunkard. Or if I lust 10 times does that make me an adulterer?

Simple: God judges in proportion to the measure of faith each person has been gifted with. To those who much has been given much more will be expected of them. Not all who believe should presume to be teachers because they will be "judged" much more strictly than those who are weak in the faith. Only God knows the cut off point.

iano writes:

- Persevere, continue in the faith, strive to enter. There is nothing said about any failure at anytime to achieve this as being acceptable. It is impossible to do this every second of the day however. So the best one can do is to try to persevere, try to continue, try to strive. Except the words 'try' and 'trying' only appear a couple of times in the whole NT and never in connection with salvation.

Actually, the word try (and variations of this word fo appear quite often within the Christian Scriptures -- and in conjunction with salvation I might add:

For example:

NIV writes:


Matthew 23:13
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

Luke 12:58
As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison.

Luke 13:24
He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

1 Corinthians 14:12
So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.

1 Thessalonians 5:15
Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else.

iano writes:

Nobody understands justification by faith.

Nobody understands some theological views which seek to push the concept of justification by faith well beyond the reasonable boundaries found all throughout the Scriptures before Paul elaborated on the heretofore unseen theodynamics of the Spirit's motion.

Many, however, do understand some theological views which seek to resonably demonstrate the simpler concepts of justification by faith as being nothing more that stating that whatever is considered good in God's eyes comes by the Spirit moving an individual to do good.

In the extreme example above, the theological views which seek to push the concept of justification by faith well beyond the reasonable boundaries conclude that God is damning anyone who does not believe.

In the softer example above, the theological views which seek to modertate the concept of justification by faith within reasonable boundaries conclude that God is warning Christians to not think to highly of themselves lest they fall into the adversary's snare -- because God is doing this within them as they are led by the Spirit.

iano writes:

We can only believe it. All we know about it is that God decided that that was the way it would be. There is nothing intrinsically understandable about justification to our minds.

Then why do the Scriptures state in 1 Corinthians 14:33?

NIV writes:

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Here's another one:

NIV writes:

For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that, as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Here's another one:

NIV writes:

For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—

Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power. Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory.

For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

Nah...there's too much in the Scriptures which plainly states that God is quite understandable -- at least how he judges is quite understandable. I admit that there are some things about God that are not immediately knowable. However, it seems to me that those who need the doctrine of "justification by faith" to be able to be applied in the most strict sense also tend to emphasize the "incomprehensibility of God" to further their own ideas on salvation -- because, quite frankly, it doesn't even seem to make sense to themselves.

iano writes:

There will be greater or lesser in the kingdom of heaven. On what basis will the grading be made if not works.

So why is it fair for works to be used to measure the merit of each individual believer's reward in heaven -- but not fair when used to measure the merit of each individual potential to enter into heaven?

iano writes:

Witness folk here who repeatedly fail to come to terms with someone else dying on our account. "Unfair" is the cry heard when an attempt is made to explain it. Safe to say that if it cannot be explained easily the simple it is not.

It may be considered unfair by some -- but it is easilly understandable. If I see a child wandering on the road with a car heading toward them, and I run to push the child out of the way but end up being struck by the car and dying, it is very easilly understood that I gave my life willingly to save the child's life.

Furthermore, in light of the child's future potential that has been saved by my sacrifice, the "unfainess" of the event is diminished by the hope that remains for this child's bright future.

Now, about this dialogue concerning "second judgement", I have to admit that I don't fully grasp the thoughts expressed in this thread yet. It seems to me that there's some thoughts there that I can jive with. Others, however, I'm not so sure about.

I'll step out concerning the main argument in this thread because I want to read and learn without derailing this thread.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by iano, posted 01-04-2006 2:47 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by truthlover, posted 01-09-2006 8:06 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded
 Message 104 by iano, posted 01-09-2006 2:10 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

    
truthlover
Member (Idle past 2351 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 100 of 106 (277476)
01-09-2006 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 2:12 AM


See you in a few weeks
I didn't have time to get back to this thread this weekend, and jaywill was done, anyway.

I'm off to India Tuesday morning for three weeks. Tax season will be in full swing when I get back, so I may not be around till at least April. Y'all have fun!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 2:12 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-09-2006 8:11 AM truthlover has not yet responded
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Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4840 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 101 of 106 (277477)
01-09-2006 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by truthlover
01-09-2006 8:06 AM


Re: See you in a few weeks
Take care truthlover. Hope all goes well with you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by truthlover, posted 01-09-2006 8:06 AM truthlover has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 233 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 102 of 106 (277478)
01-09-2006 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by truthlover
01-09-2006 8:06 AM


Re: See you in a few weeks
Have a good trip Truthlover.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by truthlover, posted 01-09-2006 8:06 AM truthlover has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-09-2006 8:39 AM iano has responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4840 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 103 of 106 (277484)
01-09-2006 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by iano
01-09-2006 8:13 AM


Re: See you in a few weeks
Take care iano. I think I'm going to be taking a break for a bit.

Please note if I've said anything within our discussion that might have offended you, it wasn't intended to come across that way. Sometimes passions do run high when speaking in matters of faith.

Even if I do not necessarilly agree with some of your theological views, I can see that you certainly have a passion for the faith and I hope that you find much growth in the things that you believe.

Blessings in Christ to you iano.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by iano, posted 01-09-2006 8:13 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by iano, posted 01-09-2006 2:14 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 233 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 104 of 106 (277581)
01-09-2006 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 2:12 AM


Re: Onto Galatians...almost
Simple: God judges in proportion to the measure of faith each person has been gifted with.

That presupposes all judgement is unto salvation/damnation. An idea with which I disagree.

I'm curious Mr.X. If it is salvation/damnation by works then is it fair to say that God is a God of the weighing scales in some sense? If it is by works then there will be a saved person who scrapes into heaven by the skin of his teeth - the very least of all there. And also one in hell who misses out on heaven by a nats whisker. One who is the very best of those in hell. Of course, God is able to weigh up the merits of each on his scale and take all factors into account and not make any mistakes - so it depends on where God draws the line which decides the cut off point.

This means that the difference between the very last into the kingdom and the one who just missed out ands resides in hell might (given the numbers of people who have lived) be no more that one lustful 2 second glance at a magazine on the top rack in the newsagents.

Wow!

Only God knows the cut off point.

So presumably you will not know if you are to be saved until the day of Judgement (assuming all Judgement is unto salvation/damnation). How could anyone sleep knowing they could very well end up eternally damned.

Who are the people about which Paul says he is convinced that "nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus" Could such a person go to hell and be separated?

Trying a stairway to heaven...

Sorry for my sloppiness MrX. I meant 'try' in conjunction with works of course. Its something I've asked a number of times around here but have got no satisfactory explanation for. Jesus, when issuing commands said things like "do", "do not", "follow" "strive" etc. He didn't, as far as I know, say "try to do, follow, strive"

The only person who should strive to enter is a man who has as yet not done so. This is patently who our Lord addresses. He comes (and still does via his word) to seek and save the lost. If a person has been found then strive to enter he patently do not have to anymore. Strive for other things perhaps - but not this.

A man can ignore the questions that pop up in his heart about his own sin

A man can decide that "I'm not so bad...surely I will enter heaven"

A man can ignore that which in him tells him that he is an eternal creature, deny God altogether

In doing so, a man is following the wide road to destruction. Strive to enter through the narrow gate (Jesus) our Lord implores. "Don't ignore these things, these calls on you" he says. Pay attention, don't ignore, follow where I am drawing you to. Strive.

Whether this is a correct view or not, works based trying it is not shown by such verses. Although, like I said, I wasn't specific enough about tying trying to works.

iano writes:

Nobody understands justification by faith.

To elaborate. What I meant was that why someone should recieve the benefits of being justified (whatever our view of that may be) is a mystery. We know (or can have a view on) what the function of justification and from whence it comes. But why justification results from faith we do not know. All we know is that God justifies people who have faith in Jesus Christ - that that is something which he has decided is the case. We don't know why faith result in justification. Only that it does.

As for it being possible to understand all things....

quote:
Romans 11:33-36 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?”

..but if you can tell me what the mechanism is by which faith results in justification (other that it just does) then by all means. Could you include some explanation as to why justification is referred to as an past event and not a process - which is what is indicated by ongoing motion of the spirit.

Nobody understands some theological views which seek to push the concept of justification by faith well beyond the reasonable boundaries found all throughout the Scriptures before Paul elaborated on the heretofore unseen theodynamics of the Spirit's motion.

The 'all throughout scripture' phrase is one I try to avoid using as it is patent that what is said all throughout scripture is a matter of some contention between us.

In the extreme (it sure is extreme. Radical even. But then Jesus was radical - iano) example above, the theological views which seek to push the concept of justification by faith well beyond the reasonable boundaries conclude that God is damning anyone who does not believe.

He won't damn them because they don't believe. He will damn them because they are guilty of sin. I don't see anything extreme about a holy God pouring out wrath on wickedness. I see it as more extreme (not at all soft) the concept of a God who:

- will condemn a man to hell for rejecting the spirits influence on him after he has been justified (given the level of faith and all the other factors involved in it) to the tune of a sin or two more than a man he allows enter heaven. You say only God know the dividing line - fair enough. But if there is one is this not the way it will be?

The alternative, the one I hold to, is life long rejection of Gods call on a man. Which is the more extreme

- allows a man (a son, heir, citizen in fact) to wonder about his eternal destiny. Any sane man who truly believed in the extent of the punishment that awaits the wicked - and truly believed that there was a real potential for that punishment to be inflicted on him (for want of anyway to assess the dividing line) would hardly sleep a wink.

So why is it fair for works to be used to measure the merit of each individual believer's reward in heaven -- but not fair when used to measure the merit of each individual potential to enter into heaven?

People who enter heaven will be deemed righteous, sons, citizens, heirs. The words are positional words. Typically attaining these positions is not based on what a person does. A son is adopted because the father adopts him. An heir inherits because of who the father is. A citizen is made a citizen by the ruler of a country. All these things, including righteousness are given by God.

It would be fair if it were by works that a man entered heaven. The trouble is that he cannot attain that which is described by these positional words. Who can make himself someones son? Who can make himself righteousness? Who can decide to be an heir or a citizen? No one... is the short answer. Thus heaven by works, though fair, would be impossible for anyone to attain. Heaven would be empty.

Why reward by works. Well, this is something that we can do. I can chose to obey and grow and love the father more. He never tests beyond that which I can endure. I can show him that I will be able to take the responsibility he gives me then - just like it happens in the 'real' world. Heaven the Meritocracy - fits with a holy and just God. Once you get there.

It may be considered unfair by some -- but it is easilly understandable. If I see a child wandering on the road with a car heading toward them, and I run to push the child out of the way but end up being struck by the car and dying, it is very easilly understood that I gave my life willingly to save the child's life.

Furthermore, in light of the child's future potential that has been saved by my sacrifice, the "unfainess" of the event is diminished by the hope that remains for this child's bright future.

Exchange this innocent child with an enemy. One who offends you never-endingly, one who hates you. And one that will go on offending and hating you til the day he dies Me? I think you'd turn the other cheek mate.

"While we were still sinners Christ died for us" Children alright - our father was satan


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 2:12 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-09-2006 10:32 PM iano has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 233 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 105 of 106 (277583)
01-09-2006 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-09-2006 8:39 AM


Re: See you in a few weeks
Cheers Mr X. Offense. None at all. I dabble in a bikers website in the UK on these matters and have developed a rather thick skin.

I wish you well too. Whilst disagreeing with your views, you have been a breath of fresh air in allowing me to come to an understanding of the argument for works based salvation. One day you might do me the pleasure of writing an essay on the whole thing. The mechanism of salvation: where we started from and were we end up and why. Just to tie up the disparate discussions under one roof.

ian


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-09-2006 8:39 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

  
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