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Author Topic:   Genesis 1 and 2: The Difference Between Created and Formed
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 81 of 210 (329366)
07-06-2006 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by jaywill
07-06-2006 8:39 AM


God's careful use of words
jaywill writes:
I think God was careful in the use of BARA and ASAH. That is what I wish to emphasize in this thread.
And also, in Message 76:
Would such a communicating God be sloppy about the words He inspires his prophets to write down?
I don't think so.
But then, in Message 78:
... the repair of sunlight and the re-appearing of other cosmic light holders including the sphere of the sun, on the fourth day make perfect sense.
If God was so careful in His use of bara and asah - "create" and "make" - why would He sloppily use one of those words to describe the repair of the sun? Are there no Hebrew words that specifically mean "repair", "rebuild", "restore", etc.?

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 125 of 210 (331492)
07-13-2006 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by jaywill
07-13-2006 6:51 AM


Re: Belief and Understanding
jaywill writes:
I challenge that you don't have to believe in order to understand the Bible.
Is it possible to understand The Lord of the Rings without believing that it's true?
... the Bible draws a distinction between the wicked and those who have insight.
The Lord of the Rings claims that elves have greater insight than humans. Should we automatically believe that that is true?
The words are the words. This topic is about the words.
If you need a secret decoder ring to figure them out, there's no point in having a Bible Study forum.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 145 of 210 (333327)
07-19-2006 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by jaywill
07-19-2006 8:49 AM


Re: context
jaywill writes:
Don't try to lock it up in like only the Jews are "daddy's favorite" sitting on daddy's lap to whom Genesis alone is addressed.
Well, the Jews are "daddy's favorite". Why do you think Genesis was written in Hebrew?
I could claim that The Lord of the Rings is MY BOOK! until the cows come home, but that doesn't make it so. Tolkien probably didn't even know I existed.
This trying to handwave away the Jewish understanding of a Hebrew text is getting pretty silly. If the consensus among Jewish scholars is that there is no significant difference between "created" and "formed", then your contrary opinion needs much stronger evidence than anything you've presented.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 147 of 210 (333478)
07-19-2006 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by jaywill
07-19-2006 5:52 PM


Re: context
jaywill writes:
Through the Abrahamic race God turns around to bless all the other nations.
Then why reject their understanding of the Book He gave to them?

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 155 of 210 (333746)
07-20-2006 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by jaywill
07-20-2006 9:54 AM


Re: context
jaywill writes:
Before God gave the law to the Jews He created the human conscience within man.
Strictly speaking, Adam and Eve "ate" their conscience when they ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. It may have come from God indirectly, but it came against His will and against His specific instructions.
The human conscience is more like Prometheus' stealing fire from the gods than a part of God's creation.
And even that story was given to the Jews. Why do you think it was written in Hebrew?
... you can't know the intrinsic purpose of the Old Testament without the New.
Conversely, misunderstanding the New Testament leads to many misunderstandings of the Old.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 158 of 210 (333778)
07-20-2006 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by jaywill
07-20-2006 3:52 PM


Re: context
jaywill writes:
If I gain great insight into culture and history of ancient Mesopotamia and Hebrew society but fail to grasp that, what has been accomplished?
But what you have "grasped" is wrong. The world is not "on a downward decline". We have not "been severed from God's original plan for our existence".
It has been demonstrated that you are reading Genesis wrong - that there is no significant difference between "created' and "formed". Your wrong reading of Genesis has led you to your wrong conclusions elsewhere.
That is why you need to accept what the Hebrews say about the Hebrew.

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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 164 of 210 (334053)
07-21-2006 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by jaywill
07-21-2006 3:15 PM


Topic: created and formed
jaywill writes:
Formed verses created is not a so important that everything hinges on those two words.
Well, this whole topic hinges on them.
... you still hve noexcuse whatsoever not to recignize what Genesis says about man falling away from God.
Genesis says nothing of the kind, but that's another topic. I'll be happy to explain it to you at an appropriate time and place.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 197 of 210 (335539)
07-26-2006 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by jaywill
07-26-2006 2:16 PM


jaywill writes:
... what forbids the materials, albiet darkened by some reason, of sun, moon, and stars from being in existence before the fourth day?
Your examples sound more like an argument against creation ex nihilo than an argument for a created/made distinction.
Of course the materials for clothes and the ingrdients for meals existed before they were "made" into something different. Who is saying that the materials for the sun, moon and stars didn't exist before the fourth day?
What seems pretty clear is that those materials were not made into "light-bearers" until the fourth day. Similarly, the skins were not made into clothes until they were made into clothes. The ingredients were not made into meals until they were made into meals.
The logic is simple: pre-existence of the materials does not imply pre-existence of the artifacts made from the materials.

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