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Author Topic:   Genesis 1 and 2: The Difference Between Created and Formed
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 136 of 210 (332847)
07-18-2006 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by arachnophilia
07-14-2006 7:04 PM


Re: Sefer Hazzohar on Gen. 1:2
i'm aware that there are many different rabbinical traditions regarding a great many things. and yes, the gap idea is one of them -- and one that i feel is unfounded. and it's a rather late one, too.
I'm glad you recognize then that some who fluently read ancient Hebrew do have a different understanding of Genesis chapter one than what you present.
It seemed that for a while your tone was "Of course all who know Hebrew agree with me on Genesis in every respect."
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by arachnophilia, posted 07-14-2006 7:04 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 10:57 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 137 of 210 (332852)
07-18-2006 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by arachnophilia
07-14-2006 6:52 PM


Re: land
Arach,
sigh* more lectures from people who don't know basic hebrew?
"tohu" is right. but "and" is pronounced "va" and the other word is pronounced "bohu" with a hard "b" sound. bet's sound like b's at the beginning of words. are you really gonna listen to someone speak about hebrew idioms when they can't read hebrew?
Arach, isn't this a tad arrogant of you to sigh like Rotherham didn't know what he was writing?
Dr. Joseph Bryant Rotherham translated the entire Old Testament from the original Hebrew and Chaldee and it can be obtained in "The Emphasized Bible" published by Kregel. The inside cover reads:
"THE EMPHASISED BIBLE - A TRANSLATION DESIGNED TO SET FORTH THE EXACT MEANING, THE PROPER TERMINLOGY, AND THE GRAPHIC STYLE OF THE SACRED ORIGINAL"
I would definitely consider its footnotes to be targeted at the seminary trained level audience as far as technicalities are concerned.
Have you translated the entire Hebrew Bible and published your version?
I think its a tad arrogant of you to be dismissive of this Bible and its translator's notes?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : wrong wording

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by arachnophilia, posted 07-14-2006 6:52 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 10:54 AM jaywill has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 138 of 210 (332854)
07-18-2006 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by jaywill
07-18-2006 10:50 AM


Re: land
Arach, isn't this a tad arrogant of you to sigh like Rotherham didn't know what he was writing?
evidently, he didn't, and that much is obvious to anyone who actually knows basic hebrew. would you listen to anyone's argument about shakespeare is they quoted "toby or toby, that isthe quest shun" ? or would you laugh them off as a poor analyst of english?
Have you translated the entire Hebrew Bible and published your version?
give me time.
I think its a tad arrogant of you to be dismissive of this Bible and its translator's notes?
if the evidence is that he does not know hebrew, then yes, his translation is suspect.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by jaywill, posted 07-18-2006 10:50 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by jaywill, posted 07-18-2006 11:06 AM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 143 by jaywill, posted 07-19-2006 8:32 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 139 of 210 (332856)
07-18-2006 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by jaywill
07-18-2006 10:35 AM


Re: Sefer Hazzohar on Gen. 1:2
I'm glad you recognize then that some who fluently read ancient Hebrew do have a different understanding of Genesis chapter one than what you present.
It seemed that for a while your tone was "Of course all who know Hebrew agree with me on Genesis in every respect."
jar mentioned once an old saying, two rabbis have three opinions between them.
there are different interpretations -- but yours is ruled out by the literal text. arguments you have yet to even tackle, like where god commands the sun to exist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by jaywill, posted 07-18-2006 10:35 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 140 of 210 (332859)
07-18-2006 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by arachnophilia
07-18-2006 10:54 AM


Re: land
Arach,
give me time
First of all in my quoting of Rotherham's notes there are symbols which I am not able to produce on my keyboard.
These symbols probably would bring out more of the pronunciation issues. Fault me for inadaquately quoting the translator then. The accent marks I omitted from my quotation.
As for time. I think you're far too busy with little Internet arguments to do this kind of heavy duty scholarly work.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 10:54 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 11:12 AM jaywill has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 141 of 210 (332862)
07-18-2006 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by jaywill
07-18-2006 11:06 AM


not your fault
These symbols probably would bring out more of the pronunciation issues. Fault me for inadaquately quoting the translator then. The accent marks I omitted from my quotation.
it's not accents. it's consonant sounds. putting a "w" in for vav where it is not being used as a vowel is inappropriate not matter what accents you put on it. selecting a "v" for a bet at the beginning of the word is also the wrong consonant sound, again too soft. i don't know of an accents (in english) that make a consonant harder, just change vowel sounds. hebrew has such an accent, the dagesh.
if he flubbed a bet or a vav in the middle of a word, it wouldn't be a big deal. that's a lot more flexible. but at the beginnings of words they ALWAYS take the hard sound.
As for time. I think you're far too busy with little Internet arguments to do this kind of heavy duty scholarly work.
yes, well, if i get in enough arguments where i have to read someone the hebrew and explain what it means, eventually i'll have a translation won't i?
Edited by arachnophilia, : broken tag, subtitle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by jaywill, posted 07-18-2006 11:06 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by jaywill, posted 07-19-2006 8:07 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 142 of 210 (333240)
07-19-2006 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by arachnophilia
07-18-2006 11:12 AM


Re: not your fault
it's not accents. it's consonant sounds
Suppose the writer was German and the w sounds like v to him?
For example Richard Wagner sounds like Richard Vagner to non Germans.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 11:12 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by arachnophilia, posted 07-20-2006 12:17 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 143 of 210 (333242)
07-19-2006 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by arachnophilia
07-18-2006 10:54 AM


Re: land
if the evidence is that he does not know hebrew, then yes, his translation is suspect.
This same note came out of the same Bible on the word "created" in verse one. I have a feeling that you'll appreciate this opinion better. This is what he wrote about "created" refering to one Davies and one Oxford Genesius (O.G.) for support.
"Prop. 'to cut' or 'carve': hence, 'form,' 'create' " - Davies H.L. p 103; "shape, create" - O.G.: not necessarily, nor generally, to make out of nothing, cp. verse 21,27; chap. ii.3; and Num. xvi.30. Seeing that, outside this passage, no example in the O.T. can be found wherein a making out of nothing is plainly intended by the Heb. bara', the reader who insists on that meaning here does so on his own responsibility. The gratuitous introduction of difficulties should of course be avoided."
I have a suspicion that you'll like that footnote better. Am I right?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 10:54 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by arachnophilia, posted 07-20-2006 12:35 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 144 of 210 (333246)
07-19-2006 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by arachnophilia
07-12-2006 6:51 PM


Re: context
take genesis 1 as a whole. it describes the creation of heaven and earth -- and it TELLS you so. take genesis as a whole. it describes the origins of how things came to be, both specific to the hebrew people, and somewhat universally as well. take the torah as a whole. it describes the traditional history of the judaism, the origin of their faith, and several major events that shaped their culture. take the tanakh as a whole -- it's a collection of the (mostly) religious writing for about 1,000 years of judaism.
Look Arach This is MY book! I want to make that very clear to you.
I am a Gentile. I am not a Jew. But this Genesis is MY book.
Now, if you would notice Genesis is not the origin of Judaism only. It tells the origin of the whole world and the whole human race. That includes a Gentile dog like me. There is no Abraham yet. There is no Moses yet, no Aaron yet, and no law or Levitical priesthood yet.
Genesis is the book of the origin of the human race. Don't try to lock it up in like only the Jews are "daddy's favorite" sitting on daddy's lap to whom Genesis alone is addressed.
"God created MAN ..." it says. This is God's word to MAN. Got it?
THIS IS MYYYYYYYY BOOK ! I don't care if you can write ancient Hebrew backwards in your sleep. Do we have an understanding?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by arachnophilia, posted 07-12-2006 6:51 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by ringo, posted 07-19-2006 1:09 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 150 by arachnophilia, posted 07-20-2006 12:43 AM jaywill has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 145 of 210 (333327)
07-19-2006 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by jaywill
07-19-2006 8:49 AM


Re: context
jaywill writes:
Don't try to lock it up in like only the Jews are "daddy's favorite" sitting on daddy's lap to whom Genesis alone is addressed.
Well, the Jews are "daddy's favorite". Why do you think Genesis was written in Hebrew?
I could claim that The Lord of the Rings is MY BOOK! until the cows come home, but that doesn't make it so. Tolkien probably didn't even know I existed.
This trying to handwave away the Jewish understanding of a Hebrew text is getting pretty silly. If the consensus among Jewish scholars is that there is no significant difference between "created" and "formed", then your contrary opinion needs much stronger evidence than anything you've presented.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by jaywill, posted 07-19-2006 8:49 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by jaywill, posted 07-19-2006 5:52 PM ringo has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 146 of 210 (333477)
07-19-2006 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by ringo
07-19-2006 1:09 PM


Re: context
Well, the Jews are "daddy's favorite".
In one sense that it true. They are the chosen race entrusted with the oracles of God. And the Messiah and Savior of the world is a Jew - Jesus of Nazareth.
On the other hand the reason there is a "called" race from Abraham is so that God can reach the "created" race of Adam. So the Jews are God's instrumental means to bless all the families of the earth:
"And in you [Abraham] all the families of the earth will be blessed." (Gen. 12;4b)
So the the Jews are a channel by which God can extend His blessing to the whole of mankind.
When God couldn't get through with the created race their rebellion reached a culmination at the Tower of Babel. Around that time He started afresh with the "called" race from one man of faith - Abram. Through the Abrahamic race God turns around to bless all the other nations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by ringo, posted 07-19-2006 1:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 147 of 210 (333478)
07-19-2006 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by jaywill
07-19-2006 5:52 PM


Re: context
jaywill writes:
Through the Abrahamic race God turns around to bless all the other nations.
Then why reject their understanding of the Book He gave to them?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 148 of 210 (333583)
07-20-2006 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by jaywill
07-19-2006 8:07 AM


Re: not your fault
Suppose the writer was German and the w sounds like v to him?
almost acceptable. he still uses a v elsewhere, and that's still incorrect, too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by jaywill, posted 07-19-2006 8:07 AM jaywill has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 149 of 210 (333591)
07-20-2006 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by jaywill
07-19-2006 8:32 AM


Re: land
I have a suspicion that you'll like that footnote better. Am I right?
no. except for the bit about "gratuitous introduction of difficulties."
i don't especially take a stand on whether bara neccessarily, can, or does mean creation ex. nihilo. but i'll be happy to let you know if i ever come to a solid conclusion on that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by jaywill, posted 07-19-2006 8:32 AM jaywill has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 150 of 210 (333592)
07-20-2006 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by jaywill
07-19-2006 8:49 AM


Re: context
Look Arach This is MY book! I want to make that very clear to you.
it's my book too. look. *holds up a copy or three*
Now, if you would notice Genesis is not the origin of Judaism only. It tells the origin of the whole world and the whole human race. That includes a Gentile dog like me.
no, genesis kinds of gets a little fuzzy on the details and genealogies of non-jews. but besides.
god gave the torah to the jews. not the assyrians, not the american indians, not the chinese. you can claim the book is yours, but it belonged to the jews first.
Don't try to lock it up in like only the Jews are "daddy's favorite" sitting on daddy's lap to whom Genesis alone is addressed.
funny, quite ironic actually. it's YOOOOOUUUUUUURRRRRR book, but nevermind the people that wrote it? the whole "daddy's favourites" thing doesn't work -- but YOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUURRRRRRRR'''''EEEEEE daddy's favourite?
hypocrite. and nevermind that YOOOOOOOOUUUUUUURRRR book SAYS they are daddy's favourite. what a disconnect with what the bible is and says you must have.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by jaywill, posted 07-19-2006 8:49 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by jaywill, posted 07-20-2006 9:54 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
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