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Author Topic:   Are there two Christs in the Bible?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 281 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 61 of 109 (504333)
03-27-2009 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by thehousethatGodbuilt
02-11-2009 10:14 AM


Re: Two Christs or two different times?
Please continue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by thehousethatGodbuilt, posted 02-11-2009 10:14 AM thehousethatGodbuilt has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 281 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 62 of 109 (504384)
03-27-2009 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Nighttrain
02-13-2009 6:55 PM


Re: Two Messiahs
Since Jesus is NOT descended in the paternal line from either Aaron or David, how can he legitimately be high priest?

That is a matter that is expounded in the book of Hebrews.

That is the question of how Christ the Son of God is a Great High Priest not arising from the tribe of Levi.

This discussion starts in Hebrews 4:14 and goes through to 7:28. The general subject is that Christ is superior to Aaron the high priest in the Old Testament.

You have wonderful reading ahead of you. You are to be envied.


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jaywill
Member (Idle past 281 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 63 of 109 (504434)
03-28-2009 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by jaywill
03-27-2009 8:17 PM


Re: Two Messiahs
Since Jesus is NOT descended in the paternal line from either Aaron or David, how can he legitimately be high priest?

Christ is descended from David.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


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 Message 64 by Brian, posted 03-28-2009 12:16 PM jaywill has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3299 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 64 of 109 (504446)
03-28-2009 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by jaywill
03-28-2009 9:17 AM


Re: Two Messiahs
Christ is descended from David.

That's an amazingly convincing argument Jay.

However, the Bible is quite clear on the matter.

The Messiah will come from the bloodline of David through Solomon, this negates Jesus.

Unless, of course, you have some additional infomation that the Bible has left out?


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Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by jaywill, posted 03-28-2009 1:55 PM Brian has responded
 Message 69 by Peg, posted 03-30-2009 2:55 AM Brian has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 281 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 65 of 109 (504450)
03-28-2009 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Brian
03-28-2009 12:16 PM


Re: Two Messiahs
That's an amazingly convincing argument Jay.

However, the Bible is quite clear on the matter.

The Messiah will come from the bloodline of David through Solomon, this negates Jesus.

Unless, of course, you have some additional infomation that the Bible has left out?

Can't an evangelist have a lazy day ?

Why do you say that the Bible says the Messiah must be of the bloodline of Solomon ?


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 Message 64 by Brian, posted 03-28-2009 12:16 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Brian, posted 03-29-2009 5:16 PM jaywill has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3299 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 66 of 109 (504484)
03-29-2009 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by jaywill
03-28-2009 1:55 PM


Re: Two Messiahs
Why do you say that the Bible says the Messiah must be of the bloodline of Solomon ?

Solomon was the one that built the Temple (God's House), and God says He will establish the throne of his kingdom forever, not the throne of Nathan or anyone else.

Since Jesus did not have an earthly father then He has no bloodline to David through Solomon. Some Christians claim that we also have a bloodline to David through Mary. The Bible never claims to give Mary's bloodline, but even if it did, and even if female bloodlines were recognised (which they aren't), then the geneology claimed for Mary goes back to Nathan, which is no good anyway.

Hence, the Bible proves that Jesus was not the Messiah.

2 Samuel 7:
12 When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jaywill, posted 03-28-2009 1:55 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by jaywill, posted 03-29-2009 5:36 PM Brian has responded
 Message 70 by Peg, posted 03-30-2009 3:01 AM Brian has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 281 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 67 of 109 (504486)
03-29-2009 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Brian
03-29-2009 5:16 PM


Re: Two Messiahs
Solomon was the one that built the Temple (God's House), and God says He will establish the throne of his kingdom forever, not the throne of Nathan or anyone else.

Since Jesus did not have an earthly father then He has no bloodline to David through Solomon. Some Christians claim that we also have a bloodline to David through Mary. The Bible never claims to give Mary's bloodline, but even if it did, and even if female bloodlines were recognised (which they aren't), then the geneology claimed for Mary goes back to Nathan, which is no good anyway.

Hence, the Bible proves that Jesus was not the Messiah.

2 Samuel 7:
12 When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

So then when Matthew opens with the words "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham ..." (Matt. 1:1), that is in your opinion, an error ?

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


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 Message 66 by Brian, posted 03-29-2009 5:16 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Brian, posted 03-30-2009 3:08 AM jaywill has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 281 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 68 of 109 (504497)
03-29-2009 10:16 PM


Concerning Christ supposedly being disqualified to be the Messianic son of David:

This debate previously was had between myself and Ramoss on the Thread "Why NOT Christ Lineage through Joesph's boodline, Instead of Judah's."

I think the major points that I made and still stand by were written mostly between messages #92 and #119.

Brian has recycled basically Ramoss's side that Christ could not be the fulfillment of the promise of the Messiah, because of lineage problems.

I don't think I will re-debate this with Brian right now. I stated some thoughts on this matter in the above thread which can still be accessed.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3269 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 69 of 109 (504505)
03-30-2009 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Brian
03-28-2009 12:16 PM


Re: Two Messiahs
Brian writes:

However, the Bible is quite clear on the matter.
The Messiah will come from the bloodline of David through Solomon, this negates Jesus.
Unless, of course, you have some additional infomation that the Bible has left out?

Nothing is left out. No matter how you look at the family line of Jesus, whether you look at his mothers line or his adoptive father Josephs line, Solomon is in it.
Matthew traces the descendants of Solomon down to Joseph, the adoptive father of Jesus, and Luke traces Jesus’ lineage to Heli (apparently the father of Mary) through Nathan, who was another son of David and Bath-sheba and therefore Solomon’s full brother.


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 Message 72 by Brian, posted 03-30-2009 3:09 AM Peg has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3269 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 70 of 109 (504506)
03-30-2009 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Brian
03-29-2009 5:16 PM


Re: Two Messiahs
Brian writes:

Hence, the Bible proves that Jesus was not the Messiah.

2 Samuel 7:
12 When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

this verse is talking about king David...the Messiah was to come from his family line. It does't matter which son of David was the father because in a Patriarchal society, all grandchildren and great grandchildren are seen to be the children of the patriarch.

Question....is that verse from a paraphrased bible translation?


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Brian
Member (Idle past 3299 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 71 of 109 (504507)
03-30-2009 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by jaywill
03-29-2009 5:36 PM


Re: Two Messiahs
So then when Matthew opens with the words "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham ..." (Matt. 1:1), that is in your opinion, an error ?

How can it be Jesus' geneology when Joseph was not Jesus' father?

There is simply no bloodline from David through Solomon to Jesus.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by jaywill, posted 03-29-2009 5:36 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by jaywill, posted 03-30-2009 7:27 AM Brian has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3299 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 72 of 109 (504509)
03-30-2009 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Peg
03-30-2009 2:55 AM


Re: Two Messiahs
Where is Solomon in 'Mary's' geneology?

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 Message 69 by Peg, posted 03-30-2009 2:55 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Peg, posted 03-30-2009 4:02 AM Brian has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3269 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 73 of 109 (504512)
03-30-2009 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Brian
03-30-2009 3:09 AM


Re: Two Messiahs
Solomn isnt in Mary's line, he shows up in Jospehs line. Mary was of the priestly line and Joseph was of the Davidic kingly line.

There are a number of lines of evidence that Mary was of the Priestly tribe. She was the daughter of Heli who was of the priestly tribe.

If tradition is correct, Heli’s wife, the mother of Mary, was Anna, whose sister had a daughter named Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptizer.

quote:
Luke1:5 In the days of Herod, king of Ju·de′a, there happened to be a certain priest named Zech·a·ri′ah of the division of A·bi′jah, and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.

Luke1:36 And, look! Elizabeth your relative has also herself conceived a son, in her old age, ..."


This tradition would make Elizabeth the cousin of Mary. Elizabeth, was “from the daughters of Aaron” of the tribe of Levi as the Scriptures themselves state.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


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 Message 72 by Brian, posted 03-30-2009 3:09 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Brian, posted 03-30-2009 8:04 AM Peg has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 281 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 74 of 109 (504515)
03-30-2009 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Brian
03-30-2009 3:08 AM


Re: Two Messiahs

me:
So then when Matthew opens with the words "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham ..." (Matt. 1:1), that is in your opinion, an error ?

Brian:
How can it be Jesus' geneology when Joseph was not Jesus' father?

There is simply no bloodline from David through Solomon to Jesus.

The question to you, I wish to have a Yes or a No.

"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham ..." (Matt. 1:1), that is in your opinion, an error ?

Yes or No?


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 Message 71 by Brian, posted 03-30-2009 3:08 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Brian, posted 03-30-2009 7:58 AM jaywill has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3299 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 75 of 109 (504516)
03-30-2009 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by jaywill
03-30-2009 7:27 AM


Re: Two Messiahs
It is not as simple as a yes or no answer because there is doubt about the virgin birth scenario.

If you wish to claim that Jesus is His own father then yes it is an error.

If you wish to claim that Joseph is Jesus biological father then the answer would be 'perhaps'.

You would, of course, have to provide proof that we do have accurate geneologies.


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 Message 74 by jaywill, posted 03-30-2009 7:27 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
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