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Author | Topic: Scrutinizing biblical translations - should we even bother? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
anastasia Member (Idle past 5978 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
pbee writes: Personally, I would like to see and hear from others as to whether or not it is reasonable to expect anything worthy of scrutiny as far as current biblical texts are concerned. Moreso, how realistic would it be to dig up and use reference material to that effect? Is it even plausible to expect anything other than added confusion? Could it help put things into perspective where modern life and science are concerned? I was replying to this post, but you are correct if you replied to the original PNT. I said two things regarding the above. One, a study of old texts in general COULD add to confusion. Two, I have a good amount of confidence in the translations we have. I didn't know how much pbee knows about Bible history, so they were just feeler type observations. I am not contesting your reply.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2157 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
I am following this topic with some interest.
It's hard to say from ISBN's. You need to look in the front of the Bible and see the name of the translation. I would recommend keeping the best copy (newest/most annotated/best condition) of each translation. If you only have one copy of an individual translation, I would not get rid of it.As a librarian, I am currently involved in weeding the collection which means that I must get rid of obsolete, worn-out, or irrelevant books both due to currency of information and lack of space. In this collection, there are many translations of the Bible, whole, old, or new testaments. So what are your suggestions to what should be there? Please be as specific as possible, including ISBNs and availability from B&N or Amazon. I assume you are referring to English versions? Some of the standards and must-haves:King James New King James American Standard (ASV) Revised Standard (RSV) New American Standard (NASB) New International (NIV) English Standard (ESV) New English Translation (NET) New Revised Standard (NRSV) New Living Translation (NLT) New Jerusalem Bible New American Bible (NAB) Good News Translation (GNT; also called TEV) New Testament in Modern English, J.B. Philips New Translation, J.N. Darby The Message Contemporary English Version (CEV) Tanakh (Jewish OT translation) This is just a short list based on a couple of websites and my preferences. I'm sure there are lots more that I've missed. Also keep the BHS Hebrew and the UBS and Nestle-Aland Greek versions for critical study.
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anglagard Member (Idle past 862 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
Thanks much for your input in this matter, I was thinking of including most of your list from my own research but you have given me a few additional translations to examine.
One consideration I must take into account is wear, the KJV and NIV here is held together with tape. What I would like to do is purchase durable hardbound copies of the primary translations so that the various versions are available in print form at this library for decades. While I would like to have every canon available, there are space limitations, however I believe your list can be largely, if not entirely, accommodated under the circumstances.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2157 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
What sort of library is this? Public? Academic? (Knowing this would help). Depending on the type of library, my list may be too long. As anastasia said, keep KJV and NIV for sure. the next most important are probably NASB, NKJV, ESV, and Tanakh.
It would also be good to keep some study Bibles if you have any. The Scofield Reference Bible is a classic, and the Ryrie Study Bible is a popular recent one. Edited by kbertsche, : additions
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pbee Member (Idle past 6053 days) Posts: 339 Joined: |
Thanks so much for your replies, they are all very insightful .
Does anyone have an opinion on the following sources, I have been using them along with other translation aids to accomplish the bulk of my own research, however, I remain open minded towards the possibility of older documents if at all possible. The Greek and English Septuagint LXX concordanceby Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton published by Samuel Bagster & Sons, Ltd., London, 1851 The Septuagint LXX Hebrew text browser covering the vocalised and cantillated Tanakh with King James Version parallel support.
TanakhML Project Parallel Translation Interlinear translation of the Greek Old and New TestamentsThe Lexical Concordance of The Apostolic Bible The English-Greek Index The Apostolic Bible Polyglot |
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pbee Member (Idle past 6053 days) Posts: 339 Joined: |
PS. I had no idea my topic was processed. Is there some sort of message system to announce such things to the user? I may have inadvertently blocked a popup or something of the sort.
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Refpunk Member (Idle past 6078 days) Posts: 60 Joined: |
Do you know why translators of any language change the word order in their translations? For example, the the word order of the German language is almost opposite of the English language. So a word-for-word translation will be gibberish in English.
So the tunnel vision of those who think that the bible is going to be a word-for-word translation keeps them from seeing that the meaning of the bible never changes. So the "mistranslation" argument is onot only ludicrous, but it proves that those who use that argument have NO CLUE what the meaning of the bible is actually saying. So I suggest they use the Interlinear Bible since they are so eager to prove the bible wrong which they never can.
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Equinox Member (Idle past 5167 days) Posts: 329 From: Michigan Joined: |
Refpunk wrote:
the meaning of the bible never changes. So the "mistranslation" argument is onot only ludicrous, but it proves that those who use that argument have NO CLUE what the meaning of the bible is actually saying. So I suggest they use the Interlinear Bible since they are so eager to prove the bible wrong which they never can. I’m not sure I understand. First you’ll have to specify which Bible you mean, since there are many Bibles available today that say different things. Also, people interpret the same text very differently, so in that way even the same bible can mean very different things over time(not to mention the clear changes to the Bible text over time). One example of this is the whole fall of man/original sin doctrine, which the ancient Jews didn’t have (nor do modern Jews), and appears to have been invented when Christianity came along. As far as proving the Bible wrong, again we’ll have to first pick a bible, but after that it’s likely that there are clear historical errors with most Bibles I can think of. Have a fun day- Equinox
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pbee Member (Idle past 6053 days) Posts: 339 Joined: |
quote:Don't the dead sea scroll fragments predate the Christianity era? They also seem to support the Original sin account. Edited by pbee, : No reason given.
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Equinox Member (Idle past 5167 days) Posts: 329 From: Michigan Joined: |
Don't the dead sea scroll fragments predate the Christianity era? They also seem to support the Original sin account. Pbee, I’m quite interested if you have evidence of that. I have the complete DSS sitting here - could you point me to a scroll number or some other reference? I mean, some clear statement that people are going to go to Hell because they inherited damnation - as Paul clearly lays out in Romans. The Eden story itself is in the DSS, but that story doesn’t give the doctrine of original sin unless you want it to - the Jews have seen it as just a story with no original sin implications since it was written, as far as we know.
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pbee Member (Idle past 6053 days) Posts: 339 Joined: |
Well thats the key to this entire fiasco isn't it? Grab your favorite scroll and make of it whatever you need. However, such issues are unavoidable under the current circumstances.
In my own opinion, Hell as proposed by religious enterprises is nothing but a load of crap. There is no scriptures supporting such a concept and for those struggling to impose it, I say good luck with your convoluted beliefs. Hell, as it stands was a tool of early religious enterprises used to instill fear and control over people. The problem with such scams(as is seen today) is that arrogance and selfishness drive those same religious groups to continue to abase God by going the extra mile and modifying there bibles accordingly. The Jews? Weren't they the ones who eradicated God's name from all literature, and put people to death for even speaking it? Though I would never discriminate by generalizing people, but this instance alone puts them in serious contempt with God's laws. I find it ironic also that the same people who seem to work so hard in researching and and finding God will inevitably come to a crossroads between religious doctrines and reason. If anything religions have completely contaminated the sanctity of the scriptures.
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Equinox Member (Idle past 5167 days) Posts: 329 From: Michigan Joined: |
Thanks for the quick reply! Yep, it seems pretty easy to decide any text says whatever doctrine they want. This is surely much of the reason why the many different Christian religions around today often interpret the same text to give widely different doctrines of how to be saved, the trinity, baptism, life after death, and so on.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1369 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
The Jews? Weren't they the ones who eradicated God's name from all literature, and put people to death for even speaking it? Though I would never discriminate by generalizing people, but this instance alone puts them in serious contempt with God's laws. the jews are of the belief that it is better to not use god's name than to misuse it. even still, they did not eradicate god's name from all literature, they just stopped using it. god's names still exists in the tanakh.
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pbee Member (Idle past 6053 days) Posts: 339 Joined: |
Well you may teach me something here.
So is it still in the bibles or has it been removed?
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1369 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Do you know why translators of any language change the word order in their translations? For example, the the word order of the German language is almost opposite of the English language. So a word-for-word translation will be gibberish in English. hebrew actually translates remarkably well. modern hebrew uses english word order. biblical hebrew tends to transpose the subject and the verb. so where we might say in english, "god created the heavens and the earth," we'd say in modern hebrew "elohim bara et-ha-shamim v'et-ha-aretz". in biblical hebrew, "bara elohim et-ha-shamim v'et-ha-aretz." now, we could tranlate the above idea a little less literally, and get at the heart of the idea. "heaven and earth" is a merismus, meaning "everything." so we could say, "god made everything." is that a wrong way to translate the verse? it more forcibly gets the idea acroos languages, but loses the flavor of the language. literal v. idiomatic is an old debate, and both have their pros and cons.
So the tunnel vision of those who think that the bible is going to be a word-for-word translation keeps them from seeing that the meaning of the bible never changes. well, let's think about this for a moment. did the meaning change between the version of same sentance i posted? well, not really. the style changed, and you might not have been aware of the meaning, so it might have changed for you. and it's also lost the literal quality -- say in genesis 1:1, "heaven" and "earth" are literally reflected in the next two verses. it's kind of a cliff notes version: clearer in some ways, but losing the details. let's also look at the above translation a little more critically. what's with that "et?" well, there isn't a work for it in english. and it's a pretty common hebrew word. what the heck do you do there? well, you leave it out. et signifies a specific object as the direct object (grammatically) of the sentance. we don't use that in english. word-for-word isn't strictly possible, because hebrew is not english, but you can still translate literally, word-by-word without translating idioms. and that's not to say one is better than the other.
So the "mistranslation" argument is onot only ludicrous, but it proves that those who use that argument have NO CLUE what the meaning of the bible is actually saying. in general, this is true. "mistranslation" arguments are typically the crutch for poor ideology. though, there are a few legitimate cases of mistranslation, or even guessed at what a certain word might mean. and this is not to say that we cannot compare different translations, both one to another, and one to source, to determine which ones are "better" subjectively. or maybe even objectively.
So I suggest they use the Interlinear Bible since they are so eager to prove the bible wrong which they never can. interlinear hebrew gives me a headache. you have to keep switching from reading right to left, to left to right. give me a parallel any day. interlinear is okay for greek. but i'd like to say a word or two against concordances. for all the faulty "mistranslation" arguments, it always seems people are "retranslating" using a concordance and a root-word dictionary. this is monumentally bad practice -- it totally strips a word of all conjugation, idiomatic and grammatic context, and people often use to switch around inappropriate other usages. someone on this board once used this technique to distort the text into describing moses cd-rom collection. it is MUCH better to learn the language a little, and read the actual hebrew text. you'll almost always find that the translators generally know what they're doing, and have translated fairly reasonably (though this varies from translation to translation... most real mistranslations have to do with the intricacies of the grammar and parsing of the words themselves).
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