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Author Topic:   Why read the Bible literally?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 256 of 304 (218998)
06-23-2005 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by jar
06-21-2005 4:42 PM


Re: A word from God
But should willful ignorance be tolerated?
YES, WILFUL IGNORANCE SHOULD BE TOLERATED. Anything people do short of criminal behavior should be permitted in a FREE SOCIETY! The idea that you have the right to dictate what people believe and teach their children is an abuse of freedom in a free society, a denial of BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-23-2005 01:21 PM

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 Message 175 by jar, posted 06-21-2005 4:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by jar, posted 06-23-2005 2:14 PM Faith has replied
 Message 263 by LinearAq, posted 06-23-2005 2:36 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 257 of 304 (219000)
06-23-2005 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Brian
06-23-2005 1:14 PM


Re: Sabbath laws
Read my list at Message 109, read what it says at Religious Tolerance, and while you're at it take a look at the links at my Message 179 where the literal interpretation of Genesis is strongly argued as the TRADITIONAL INTERPRETATION OF THE CHURCH against the liberalizing revisionist view of the Liberal Theology of the 19th century.

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 Message 255 by Brian, posted 06-23-2005 1:14 PM Brian has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 258 of 304 (219004)
06-23-2005 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Brian
06-23-2005 1:14 PM


Re: Church Fathers' Literalism
Read the Origen quote about Genesis. It is very odd, but it doesn't support an allegorical reading. The quotes of the other Church Fathers are, however, indisputable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Brian, posted 06-23-2005 1:14 PM Brian has replied

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 Message 262 by Brian, posted 06-23-2005 2:23 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 259 of 304 (219009)
06-23-2005 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by LinearAq
06-21-2005 8:32 PM


Re: Faith and Literalism
So you had to believe the Bible is literally true in all details before you read it. So that you can understand the part that says that Christ died for your sins?
Ran across this post again and have a better answer:
No, all it takes is "faith like a mustard seed" and your understanding will grow from there.
But the tiniest faith if it is true faith means not dismissing any part of scripture simply because it doesn't make sense to you. Even if 99% of it doesn't make sense, faith means suspending judgment, just leave it for later, and faith will gradually reduce the percentage that doesn't make sense. That's how it happened with me.

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 Message 180 by LinearAq, posted 06-21-2005 8:32 PM LinearAq has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 260 of 304 (219012)
06-23-2005 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
06-23-2005 1:25 PM


Re: Sabbath laws
I read the list at rel-tol, and I honestly do not see where it says that all of the people on the list advocated a literal reading of the entire Bible. It just doesnt say that. Incidently, they spell Origen's name incorrectly.
The heading is 'Past Church Beliefs about the Origin of the Earth'. It doesn't claim that the people on the list claim that the Bible should be taken literally.
Even if it did, how do you square that with the Origen quote that I gave you?
Here is another from the same book:
Who will be found idiot enough to believe that God planted trees in Paradise like any husbandman; that he set up in it visible and palpable tree-trunks, labelled the one ‘Tree of Life’ and the other ‘Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil’ both bearing real fruit that might be masticated with corporeal teeth; that he went and walked about that garden; that Adam hid under a tree; that Cain fled from the face of God? (Conybeare: 10)
How can anyone say that Origen took the Bible literally?
Also, how anyone can believe that Augustine was a literalist displays an amazing lack of familiarity with his work.
Like Jerome, Augustine believed that the Bible could not be read literally, and that to begin to fathom its mysteries required education. Therefore Augustine, who like Jerome and Ambrose had been strongly influenced by classical Greek and Roman philosophy, argued that the social elite among Christians should receive a classical education. But also like Jerome and Ambrose, he instated that classical ideas be subordinated to the teachings of the Church.
here
Brian.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 261 of 304 (219021)
06-23-2005 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Faith
06-23-2005 1:18 PM


Re: A word from God
So you believe it is right to teach children things that are false?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 06-23-2005 1:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Faith, posted 06-23-2005 3:01 PM jar has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 262 of 304 (219025)
06-23-2005 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Faith
06-23-2005 1:29 PM


Re: Church Fathers' Literalism
It is very odd, but it doesn't support an allegorical reading.
" we must discard a literal interpretation ", it hardly supports a literal interpretation does it?
The quotes of the other Church Fathers are, however, indisputable. Read the Origen quote about Genesis. It is very odd, but it doesn't support an allegorical reading. The quotes of the other Church Fathers are, however, indisputable.
I honestly think you have misunderstood what that webpage is all about.
I cannot think of a church father who took the New testament literally, there may well be a few, but I haven't seen one yet.
Brian.

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 Message 258 by Faith, posted 06-23-2005 1:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Faith, posted 06-23-2005 2:54 PM Brian has replied

LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4676 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 263 of 304 (219031)
06-23-2005 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Faith
06-23-2005 1:18 PM


Re: A word from God
Faith writes:
YES, WILFUL IGNORANCE SHOULD BE TOLERATED. Anything people do short of criminal behavior should be permitted in a FREE SOCIETY!
Yes, I agree.
Faith further writes:
The idea that you have the right to dictate what people believe and teach their children is an abuse of freedom in a free society, a denial of BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS.
I disagree here. The children so taught are not exercising willful ignorance. Ignorance is being forced upon them, which is an abuse of their freedom. I am quite sure that you would not condone the open teaching to children that racism is right and should continue.
Off-topic, but we could open a thread on allowing the teaching of ignorance to children. Might not go very far though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 06-23-2005 1:18 PM Faith has replied

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 Message 265 by Faith, posted 06-23-2005 2:48 PM LinearAq has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 264 of 304 (219036)
06-23-2005 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by LinearAq
06-23-2005 2:36 PM


Re: A word from God
I am quite sure that you would not condone the open teaching to children that racism is right and should continue.
The Old Testament openly promotes racism. Israel is God's chosen people, all other races are inferior.
Brian.
PS. I certainly would contribute to a thread on The Rights of the Child.

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 Message 266 by Faith, posted 06-23-2005 2:49 PM Brian has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 265 of 304 (219040)
06-23-2005 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by LinearAq
06-23-2005 2:36 PM


Re: A word from God
The idea that you have the right to dictate what people believe and teach their children is an abuse of freedom in a free society, a denial of BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS.
I disagree here. The children so taught are not exercising willful ignorance. Ignorance is being forced upon them, which is an abuse of their freedom. I am quite sure that you would not condone the open teaching to children that racism is right and should continue.
I will stick my neck out to say that it is NOBODY'S BUSINESS what people teach their children. NONE. I don't care if they are the craziest racists you ever heard of. Again, personal BELIEFS, THOUGHTS, OPINIONS MUST BE TOLERATED if a society is to remain free, no matter how obnoxious you or anybody else thinks those views are. NOTHING SHORT OF CRIMINAL ACTS is the state's business. Life has a way of teaching people all kinds of things over time. Let life take care of anti-social opinions. Leave people alone!

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 266 of 304 (219041)
06-23-2005 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Brian
06-23-2005 2:44 PM


Re: A word from God
That's a vile slander. The Chosen People is not a racial concept, and superiority over others was NOT what it ever meant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Brian, posted 06-23-2005 2:44 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Brian, posted 06-23-2005 5:15 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 267 of 304 (219043)
06-23-2005 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Brian
06-23-2005 2:23 PM


Re: Church Fathers' Literalism
It is very odd, but it doesn't support an allegorical reading.
======
" we must discard a literal interpretation ", it hardly supports a literal interpretation does it?
I wasn't talking about your quote, I was talking about the quote at Religious Tolerance.
The quotes of the other Church Fathers are, however, indisputable. Read the Origen quote about Genesis. It is very odd, but it doesn't support an allegorical reading. The quotes of the other Church Fathers are, however, indisputable.
========
I honestly think you have misunderstood what that webpage is all about.
Religious Tolerance is not my friend but what they have quoted is Church Fathers who believed in the literal six-day creation. They no doubt think this is stupid but the quotes appear to be legit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Brian, posted 06-23-2005 2:23 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Brian, posted 06-23-2005 4:47 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 268 of 304 (219046)
06-23-2005 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by jar
06-23-2005 2:14 PM


Re: A word from God
So you believe it is right to teach children things that are false?
As opposed to letting you define what is false, absolutely!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by jar, posted 06-23-2005 2:14 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by jar, posted 06-23-2005 3:07 PM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 269 of 304 (219047)
06-23-2005 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Faith
06-23-2005 3:01 PM


Re: A word from God
It's not what I define as false, it's what IS false. 2 + 2 does not equal 5.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Faith, posted 06-23-2005 3:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Faith, posted 06-23-2005 3:11 PM jar has replied
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 06-23-2005 3:16 PM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 270 of 304 (219049)
06-23-2005 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by jar
06-23-2005 3:07 PM


Re: A word from God
EVOLUTION IS NOT 2+2=4 but even if it were, those who think it's not have the right to believe that and be left alone to believe it and not be harassed by self-appointed dictators like you enforced by the state.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by jar, posted 06-23-2005 3:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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