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Author Topic:   Parables 101
pelican
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 166 of 229 (570790)
07-28-2010 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by purpledawn
07-28-2010 12:58 PM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
Whether the master's actions were right or wrong is irrelevant to the lesson of the story.

In the parable, the master judges, punishes and rewards. In the following paragraph "Judgement", it is god who punishes and rewards but for completely different reasons.
Is the master morally responsible and is this what god judges us on?

The Judgment
25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 25:32 All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

25:33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 25:34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 25:36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 25:38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? 25:39 When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 25:40 And the king will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of mine, you did it for me.’

25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not receive me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 25:44 Then they too will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not give you whatever you needed?’ 25:45 Then he will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for me.’ 25:46 And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Edited by pelican, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by purpledawn, posted 07-28-2010 12:58 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by jar, posted 07-28-2010 9:53 PM pelican has responded
 Message 176 by purpledawn, posted 07-29-2010 6:26 AM pelican has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32915
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 167 of 229 (570794)
07-28-2010 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by pelican
07-28-2010 9:40 PM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
pelican writes:

In the parable, the master judges, punishes and rewards. In the following paragraph "Judgement", it is god who punishes and rewards but for completely different reasons.

Huh?

Here is the parable of the Talents.

quote:
The Parable of the Talents
14"Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. 15To one he gave five talents[a] of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. 17So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. 18But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.

19"After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.'

21"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

22"The man with the two talents also came. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.'

23"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

24"Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'

26"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

28" 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'


Nowhere in there is God directly mentioned.

pelican writes:

Is the master morally responsible and is this what god judges us on?

In the parable the only judge is the master. There is no clue in there if or how the master will be judged.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 9:40 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 10:01 PM jar has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 168 of 229 (570797)
07-28-2010 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by jar
07-28-2010 9:53 PM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
This is the judgement following the parable.
The Judgment
25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 25:32 All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
25:33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 25:34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 25:36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 25:38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? 25:39 When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 25:40 And the king will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of mine, you did it for me.’

25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not receive me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 25:44 Then they too will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not give you whatever you needed?’ 25:45 Then he will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for me.’ 25:46 And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

There is a great disparity between how the master judges and how jesus and god judge. We all, including the masters, will be eventually judged by god's criteria not our own.

If you substitute the master and servant with the sheep and the goat, which is which?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by jar, posted 07-28-2010 9:53 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by jar, posted 07-28-2010 10:18 PM pelican has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 169 of 229 (570799)
07-28-2010 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by purpledawn
07-28-2010 1:16 PM


Re: Parable of the Fair Employer
It didn't speak of repentance but it did speak of service.
The kingdom of heaven is like.... A positive phrasing would be that no matter how long one serves "God" they are equal before God. No extra points for serving longer.

Yes I can see that but isn't it the quality of service that is judged? In the parable of talents who is best serving god?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by purpledawn, posted 07-28-2010 1:16 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by purpledawn, posted 07-29-2010 5:56 AM pelican has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 170 of 229 (570801)
07-28-2010 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by jar
07-28-2010 9:27 PM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
You're mixing parables. It's not a Chinese restaurant where you get to pick one from column one and two from column two.
It's all in context. The parables lead up to the judgement in god's kingdom.

Each parable stands on it's own. There is nothing in any of the four parables that tells us anything about how the master in the Talents parable would be judged or even if he would be judged. In fact in the parable of the Talents the master is the judge.
Yes and a bad one at that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by jar, posted 07-28-2010 9:27 PM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32915
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 171 of 229 (570802)
07-28-2010 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by pelican
07-28-2010 10:01 PM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
pelican writes:

This is the judgement following the parable.

No, that's another parable, the parable of the Sheep and Goats.

Don't mix parables.

pelican writes:

There is a great disparity between how the master judges and how jesus and god judge. We all, including the masters, will be eventually judged by god's criteria not our own.

If you substitute the master and servant with the sheep and the goat, which is which?

You can't do that. In the parable of Faithful and Wise servant it is the Master who decides the criteria. In the parable of the Virgins it is the Bridegroom that decides. In the parable of the Talents the Master is the judge and decides the criteria. In the parable of the Sheep and Goats Jesus is the judge and decides the criteria.

The common theme in all four of the parables though is that we will be judged based on how we perform, what we do.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 10:01 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 11:03 PM jar has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 172 of 229 (570817)
07-28-2010 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by jar
07-28-2010 10:18 PM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
You can't do that.
Well who do you think jesus was referring to as sheep or goats?

The common theme in all four of the parables though is that we will be judged based on how we perform, what we do.

OK the parable of the sheep and goats is subtitled Judgement and it explains the criterior on which all those represented previously in Jesus' parables will be judged in the kingdom of heaven when you die.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by jar, posted 07-28-2010 10:18 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by jar, posted 07-28-2010 11:16 PM pelican has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32915
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 173 of 229 (570820)
07-28-2010 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by pelican
07-28-2010 11:03 PM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
pelican writes:

Well who do you think jesus was referring to as sheep or goats?

I believe the Goats in that parable would be found among what we call Christians today, particularly Biblical Christians and all the Televangelists and their followers.

There may be a few Christians in with the Sheep but mostly they will likely be Atheists, Agnostics, Taoists, Satanists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Wiccans, Animists, Hindus, Sikhs and folk from other religions.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 11:03 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 11:51 PM jar has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 174 of 229 (570823)
07-28-2010 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by jar
07-28-2010 11:16 PM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
I believe the Goats in that parable would be found among what we call Christians today, particularly Biblical Christians and all the Televangelists and their followers.

There may be a few Christians in with the Sheep but mostly they will likely be Atheists, Agnostics, Taoists, Satanists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Wiccans, Animists, Hindus, Sikhs and folk from other religions.

I must have missed that but it just about covers everyone.

I thought he was referring to goats as those who do not treat others well and the sheep as those who do, regardless of religion or no religion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by jar, posted 07-28-2010 11:16 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by jar, posted 07-29-2010 11:02 AM pelican has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 175 of 229 (570841)
07-29-2010 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by pelican
07-28-2010 10:07 PM


Re: Parable of the Fair Employer
quote:
Yes I can see that but isn't it the quality of service that is judged? In the parable of talents who is best serving god?
Not in this parable. The parable deals with length of service, not quality.

Where do you pull quality of service from?


Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motion—for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in “The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 10:07 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by pelican, posted 07-29-2010 6:38 AM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 176 of 229 (570842)
07-29-2010 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by pelican
07-28-2010 9:40 PM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
quote:
In the parable, the master judges, punishes and rewards. In the following paragraph "Judgement", it is god who punishes and rewards but for completely different reasons.
Is the master morally responsible and is this what god judges us on?
A parable makes one moral or religious point. The point of the Parable of the Talents deals with not squandering the gifts God has given you. What the master in the story will be held accountable for by God is not part of the parable. It isn't the point.

The discourse by Jesus starting with verse 31 is not a parable. Jesus is telling them what will happen. Clearly the sheep used their gifts wisely and helped others and the goats didn't.


Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motion—for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in “The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 9:40 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by pelican, posted 07-29-2010 7:05 AM purpledawn has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 177 of 229 (570845)
07-29-2010 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by purpledawn
07-29-2010 5:56 AM


Re: Parable of the Fair Employer
Not in this parable. The parable deals with length of service, not quality.
Where do you pull quality of service from?

I think we are still on the talents parable and in this it doesn't have reward for length of service, but the quality of service by the return on the talents. Doubling the masters money was quality service for the master but returning the investment without profit was not quality service for the master.

However, neither Jesus or god judges us using this criterior. A parable is supposed to contain a religious or moral lesson and being told to do better is neither.

As I have previously said, the criterior by which jesus and or god expects from us is in the judgement following the parable of the talents. These don't stand alone as individual stories. They are all linked and Jesus told of the consequences of our behaviour towards one another. Sheep or goat?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by purpledawn, posted 07-29-2010 5:56 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by purpledawn, posted 07-29-2010 7:31 AM pelican has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 178 of 229 (570846)
07-29-2010 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by purpledawn
07-29-2010 6:26 AM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
A parable makes one moral or religious point. The point of the Parable of the Talents deals with not squandering the gifts God has given you. What the master in the story will be held accountable for by God is not part of the parable. It isn't the point.
If it is about not squandering the gifts god has given you, does it apply to everyone?
The discourse by Jesus starting with verse 31 is not a parable. Jesus is telling them what will happen. Clearly the sheep used their gifts wisely and helped others and the goats didn't.
Someone said it was but I don't think it's relevant. I don't think the judgement mentions anything about using gifts wisely and neither does the parable of the talents. One shows us how we behave and the other shows us the consequences of our behaviour.
It's up to us to decide before we die to judge our own behaviour or else. Hell and damnation!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by purpledawn, posted 07-29-2010 6:26 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by purpledawn, posted 07-29-2010 7:54 AM pelican has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 179 of 229 (570851)
07-29-2010 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by pelican
07-29-2010 6:38 AM


Re: Parable of the Fair Employer
quote:
I think we are still on the talents parable and in this it doesn't have reward for length of service, but the quality of service by the return on the talents. Doubling the masters money was quality service for the master but returning the investment without profit was not quality service for the master.
Keep your parables straight. The Parable of the Fair Employer is not the same as the Parable of the Talents.

The Fair Employer hires people at different times during the day, but pays them the same at the end.

The Talents is about a master who leaves and gives his servants money to manage while he is gone.

Don't mix your parables.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by pelican, posted 07-29-2010 6:38 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by pelican, posted 07-29-2010 8:59 AM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 180 of 229 (570853)
07-29-2010 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by pelican
07-29-2010 7:05 AM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
quote:
If it is about not squandering the gifts god has given you, does it apply to everyone?
The parable doesn't give us that answer. Jesus was talking to Jews.

quote:
Someone said it was but I don't think it's relevant. I don't think the judgement mentions anything about using gifts wisely and neither does the parable of the talents. One shows us how we behave and the other shows us the consequences of our behaviour.

It is relevant whether it is a parable or not since this thread is about parables.

The kingdom of heaven is like..which means the parable is a visual aid. To understand one has to have some knowledge of the Jewish beliefs of the time so that one gets the same visual, which is difficult today. Everything comes from God. If one does nothing good with what they are given, it will be taken away and they will suffer.

That is what Jesus is saying with the sheep and the goats. The goats didn't use their resources (whether large or small) to help others in need.

quote:
It's up to us to decide before we die to judge our own behaviour or else. Hell and damnation!
Not what either of the parables I've addressed are telling you.

Parable of the Talents: Use the resources (big or small) God gave you to serve God. Usually serving God means helping others in need.

Parable of the Fair Employer: No matter how long we have served God we will be equal before God.

So if you are a goat and haven't used your resources (big or small) wisely by helping others in need, then you haven't been serving God so length of service is irrelevant.

If you are a sheep and have been using your resources (big or small) wisely, then the length of time you have been serving doesn't gain you any more points with God. The sheep are equal before God.

The discourse on the sheep and goats refers to Gentiles. When the word nation is used by itself it usually isn't including the nation of Israel.

As for the parables, Jesus is teaching Jews not Gentiles.


Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motion—for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in “The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by pelican, posted 07-29-2010 7:05 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by pelican, posted 07-29-2010 9:33 AM purpledawn has responded

  
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