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Author Topic:   Parables 101
pelican
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 181 of 229 (570860)
07-29-2010 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by purpledawn
07-29-2010 7:31 AM


Re: Parable of the Fair Employer
I realise that. I might ask you then where you get the length of service from? It isn't in the parable of talents.
The fair employer parable is the only one mentioning pay and time and I haven't mentioned this one at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by purpledawn, posted 07-29-2010 7:31 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by purpledawn, posted 07-29-2010 10:13 AM pelican has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 182 of 229 (570870)
07-29-2010 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by purpledawn
07-29-2010 7:54 AM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
If it is about not squandering the gifts god has given you, does it apply to everyone?

The parable doesn't give us that answer. Jesus was talking to Jews.

So was the lesson just for Jews and not a master or mankind in general?

It is relevant whether it is a parable or not since this thread is about parables.
It is irrelevant to the argument whether it's called a parable or a xmas carol. They are the words of Jesus.

Everything comes from God. If one does nothing good with what they are given, it will be taken away and they will suffer.

That is what Jesus is saying with the sheep and the goats. The goats didn't use their resources (whether large or small) to help others in need.

The master in the parable of talents did nothing to help the servant with one talent. He actually put the servant in a position of need. I would imagine the master had a large amount of resources. Why point the finger at the lowly servant and not at the harsh master?

Not what either of the parables I've addressed are telling you.
Parable of the Talents: Use the resources (big or small) God gave you to serve God. Usually serving God means helping others in need.

Parable of the Fair Employer: No matter how long we have served God we will be equal before God.

So if you are a goat and haven't used your resources (big or small) wisely by helping others in need, then you haven't been serving God so length of service is irrelevant.

If you are a sheep and have been using your resources (big or small) wisely, then the length of time you have been serving doesn't gain you any more points with God. The sheep are equal before God.

The discourse on the sheep and goats refers to Gentiles. When the word nation is used by itself it usually isn't including the nation of Israel.

As for the parables, Jesus is teaching Jews not Gentiles.


I don't get the distinction between who he is teaching. Isn't he the son of god? Isn't god the father of us all?

I am beginning to understand that there is prior knowledge and strongly held beliefs that assume and add a lot more than I can perceive.

For me it has nothing to do with my beliefs. For me it is about the written language and comprehending what is written as it is written. The only background I have is that Jesus was a defender of the under-dog every time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by purpledawn, posted 07-29-2010 7:54 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by purpledawn, posted 07-29-2010 10:28 AM pelican has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 183 of 229 (570882)
07-29-2010 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by pelican
07-29-2010 8:59 AM


Re: Parable of the Fair Employer
quote:
I realise that. I might ask you then where you get the length of service from? It isn't in the parable of talents.
The fair employer parable is the only one mentioning pay and time and I haven't mentioned this one at all.
This is why subtitles are good, especially in a thread like this where several parables are being discussed.

Message 128 is where you started discussing the Parable of the Fair Employer. I came into that discussion at Message 160.

PurpleDawn writes:

It didn't speak of repentance but it did speak of service.
The kingdom of heaven is like.... A positive phrasing would be that no matter how long one serves "God" they are equal before God. No extra points for serving longer.

Just like the fair employer, no matter how long one worked for him that day they were paid the same.

So in the kingdom of heaven, no matter how long one serves God, they are equal before God. No extra points for longer service.


Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motion—for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in “The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by pelican, posted 07-29-2010 8:59 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by pelican, posted 07-29-2010 10:45 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 184 of 229 (570887)
07-29-2010 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by pelican
07-29-2010 9:33 AM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
quote:
So was the lesson just for Jews and not a master or mankind in general?
Jesus was talking to a Jewish audience. The lesson was for his audience. That doesn't mean others can't learn from the parable.

Do the most with what you have and help others when you can.

quote:
It is irrelevant to the argument whether it's called a parable or a xmas carol. They are the words of Jesus.
This isn't a general discussion about the words of Jesus. This thread is about parables. So it does make a difference.

quote:
The master in the parable of talents did nothing to help the servant with one talent. He actually put the servant in a position of need. I would imagine the master had a large amount of resources. Why point the finger at the lowly servant and not at the harsh master?
Not the point of the parable.

quote:
I am beginning to understand that there is prior knowledge and strongly held beliefs that assume and add a lot more than I can perceive.
The parable were for first century Jews. So Jesus told a story they would understand. It wasn't written for us to understand.

quote:
For me it has nothing to do with my beliefs. For me it is about the written language and comprehending what is written as it is written. The only background I have is that Jesus was a defender of the under-dog every time.
Then you will likely get your own moral or lesson from the story, which may or may not be what Jesus was teaching his audience. So either you want to learn about the culture to understand what was being taught or you don't care and will just make up your own lesson.


Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motion—for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in “The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by pelican, posted 07-29-2010 9:33 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by pelican, posted 07-29-2010 10:57 AM purpledawn has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 185 of 229 (570896)
07-29-2010 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by purpledawn
07-29-2010 10:13 AM


Re: Parable of the Fair Employer
Ah, yes. I can see the probelm now. I was just commenting on Phat's thread but introduced one of my own which was the parable of the talents. I will surely sub-title from now on. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by purpledawn, posted 07-29-2010 10:13 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 186 of 229 (570899)
07-29-2010 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by purpledawn
07-29-2010 10:28 AM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
This isn't a general discussion about the words of Jesus. This thread is about parables. So it does make a difference.

Aren't they the same thing?

The master in the parable of talents did nothing to help the servant with one talent. He actually put the servant in a position of need. I would imagine the master had a large amount of resources. Why point the finger at the lowly servant and not at the harsh master?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not the point of the parable.

How do you know? Aren't you just using parts of the parables and discarding what doesn't fit into your expanation?

The parable were for first century Jews. So Jesus told a story they would understand. It wasn't written for us to understand.
My mistake, I thought the bible stories were still being taught and many follow the perceived teachings today.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For me it has nothing to do with my beliefs. For me it is about the written language and comprehending what is written as it is written. The only background I have is that Jesus was a defender of the under-dog every time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then you will likely get your own moral or lesson from the story, which may or may not be what Jesus was teaching his audience. So either you want to learn about the culture to understand what was being taught or you don't care and will just make up your own lesson.

The behaviour Jesus desribes in the same in any culture.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by purpledawn, posted 07-29-2010 10:28 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by purpledawn, posted 07-29-2010 7:20 PM pelican has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32915
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 187 of 229 (570901)
07-29-2010 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by pelican
07-28-2010 11:51 PM


Re: Sheep and Goats
pelican writes:

jar writes:

I believe the Goats in that parable would be found among what we call Christians today, particularly Biblical Christians and all the Televangelists and their followers.

There may be a few Christians in with the Sheep but mostly they will likely be Atheists, Agnostics, Taoists, Satanists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Wiccans, Animists, Hindus, Sikhs and folk from other religions.

I must have missed that but it just about covers everyone.

I thought he was referring to goats as those who do not treat others well and the sheep as those who do, regardless of religion or no religion.

Go back and look at the Sheep and Goats parable in Matthew 25, it's one of the most important lessons in the Bible.

Let's parse it together.

quote:
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

So everyone is gathered, all nations, all beliefs.

quote:
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'


Now the Sheep are surprised that he says they did anything for him. They know they never did anything for Jesus. Note the emphasis. This is not the reply you would expect from a follower.

Now look at the Goats.

quote:
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'


Note the subtle difference in the replies. The Goats say, "Hey bro, when did we ever fail to help you?"

That is the reply of someone who was a follower, one you can say, "When did we not help you?"

The point is that many of the folk out there that spend their lives professing love of God and Jesus, doing for Jesus, the Christian followers the ones that would do anything FOR Jesus, miss the point.

It is an explanation of the Great Commandment Love God and love others as you love yourself.

The way you love God is not doing for God, it is doing for others.

When we get sorted, all the secular folk that paid high taxes for a welfare system to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, clothe the naked, educate the children will surely be among the Sheep.

If we look at the worlds population, there are far more folk out there of all religions that will fall under the criteria of Sheep than there will be Christians. Sure there will be Christians in both camps, but the common idea that the split is between believers and non-believers is wrong.

When we look at the makeup of Sheep and Goats, the division will not be as so many Christians seem to think.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin and fix sub-title


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 11:51 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by pelican, posted 07-29-2010 10:46 PM jar has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 188 of 229 (571046)
07-29-2010 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by pelican
07-29-2010 10:57 AM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
quote:
Aren't they the same thing?
No. Everything that Jesus supposedly said was not a parable.

quote:
How do you know? Aren't you just using parts of the parables and discarding what doesn't fit into your expanation?
I read and try to understand what the original audience understood.

No.


Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motion—for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in “The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by pelican, posted 07-29-2010 10:57 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by pelican, posted 07-30-2010 9:00 PM purpledawn has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 189 of 229 (571064)
07-29-2010 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by jar
07-29-2010 11:02 AM


Re: Sheep and Goats
he point is that many of the folk out there that spend their lives professing love of God and Jesus, doing for Jesus, the Christian followers the ones that would do anything FOR Jesus, miss the point.

It is an explanation of the Great Commandment Love God and love others as you love yourself.

The way you love God is not doing for God, it is doing for others.

I would agree with this also which means you don't even have to believe in god to receive god's love. It's all about the person we are on the inside regardless of culture or religion. It's more like being the word of god rather than doing.

When we get sorted, all the secular folk that paid high taxes for a welfare system to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, clothe the naked, educate the children will surely be among the Sheep.
Are you in this category? Personally giving money in any way doesn't cut it. Perhaps the intention and motive for giving money is more important. Would the high tax payers pay it if they didn't have to? How many fiddle their taxes? As with any group of human beings, there will be a mix.

If we look at the worlds population, there are far more folk out there of all religions that will fall under the criteria of Sheep than there will be Christians. Sure there will be Christians in both camps, but the common idea that the split is between believers and non-believers is wrong.
Yes I would totally agree with this 'idea' of the split being wrong.

When we look at the makeup of Sheep and Goats, the division will not be as so many Christians seem to think.
I know the J.W's believe 144000 of them will go to heaven. When the need is great enough people will believe anything.
Thanks for your responses. Enjoyed them very much.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by jar, posted 07-29-2010 11:02 AM jar has not yet responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 190 of 229 (571228)
07-30-2010 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by purpledawn
07-29-2010 7:20 PM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
No. Everything that Jesus supposedly said was not a parable.
Yes I agree that Jesus was not always speaking in parables. However, his sentiments and beliefs don't change throughout his life.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you know? Aren't you just using parts of the parables and discarding what doesn't fit into your expanation?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I read and try to understand what the original audience understood.

I think the understanding has to come through the author/narrator. I try to understand what Jesus meant. I don't think their minds could have been as complicated as ours and wouldn't have the ability to 'overthink' it as we do.

Thanks for your input. I expected a lively discussion and was not dissappointed. Great.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by purpledawn, posted 07-29-2010 7:20 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by purpledawn, posted 07-31-2010 8:03 AM pelican has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 191 of 229 (571283)
07-31-2010 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by pelican
07-30-2010 9:00 PM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
quote:
Yes I agree that Jesus was not always speaking in parables. However, his sentiments and beliefs don't change throughout his life.
It doesn't matter. The thread is to discuss parables not his general sentiments and beliefs. The sheep and goat discourse is not a parable no matter how you rationalize it.

quote:
I think the understanding has to come through the author/narrator. I try to understand what Jesus meant. I don't think their minds could have been as complicated as ours and wouldn't have the ability to 'overthink' it as we do.
To understand what Jesus meant, one has to understand the culture from which he spoke or from which the author wrote (80-100CE). The master/slave relationship is not part of our culture.

The real focus of Jesus' teachings is the refining of personal piety and active involvement in helping people. Jewish teachings dealt with practical living.

Unlike Jesus' audience, we aren't familiar with rabbinic parables. There were other rabbinic parables with the theme of reward for faithful stewardship. His audience would have understood his point. They didn't need to make it more complicated than it is. Jews were quite capable of "over thinking" as much as we are today. Just look at the "fence around the Torah" and their methods of biblical interpretation.

We, on the other hand, are far removed from the culture and Jewish teachings. That's why we try to make it more complicated than it is. We are missing information, so we are reading more into the story because of our current culture and belief system. (That's why I keep telling you the behavior of the master is not the point of the story and it isn't about an underdog. You are making the story more complicated than it is.)

The parable of the talents relates to the popular English expression "When the cat is away, the mice will play!" IOW, for Christians just because Jesus isn't physically standing in front of us, doesn't mean we can be lax in our behavior/stewardship.


Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motion—for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in “The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by pelican, posted 07-30-2010 9:00 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by pelican, posted 07-31-2010 9:50 PM purpledawn has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 192 of 229 (571481)
07-31-2010 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by purpledawn
07-31-2010 8:03 AM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
Ok the consensus of opinion seems to be that Jesus was teaching "it is wrong to not use our god given talents."

Is this how Christians see it and do they apply it in their lives?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by purpledawn, posted 07-31-2010 8:03 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by jar, posted 07-31-2010 9:53 PM pelican has responded
 Message 197 by purpledawn, posted 08-01-2010 7:00 AM pelican has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32915
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 193 of 229 (571484)
07-31-2010 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by pelican
07-31-2010 9:50 PM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
pelican writes:

Ok the consensus of opinion seems to be that Jesus was teaching "it is wrong to not use our god given talents."

Is this how Christians see it and do they apply it in their lives?

It's sure not as popular as "Let go and let god" or "Not perfected, only saved" or all the other cop outs.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by pelican, posted 07-31-2010 9:50 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by pelican, posted 07-31-2010 10:11 PM jar has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3611 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 194 of 229 (571489)
07-31-2010 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by jar
07-31-2010 9:53 PM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
It's sure not as popular as "Let go and let god" or "Not perfected, only saved" or all the other cop outs.
Copping out of what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by jar, posted 07-31-2010 9:53 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by jar, posted 07-31-2010 10:14 PM pelican has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32915
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 195 of 229 (571490)
07-31-2010 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by pelican
07-31-2010 10:11 PM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
Personal responsibility.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by pelican, posted 07-31-2010 10:11 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by pelican, posted 08-01-2010 1:26 AM jar has not yet responded

  
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