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Author Topic:   Parables 101
pelican
Member (Idle past 3677 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 196 of 229 (571520)
08-01-2010 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by jar
07-31-2010 10:14 PM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
You have an odd perceptions of christians in general. What's up?

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2148 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 197 of 229 (571559)
08-01-2010 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by pelican
07-31-2010 9:50 PM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
quote:
Ok the consensus of opinion seems to be that Jesus was teaching "it is wrong to not use our god given talents."

Is this how Christians see it and do they apply it in their lives?


Use our resources and abilities to help others, not just to use them.

Churches are usually about using ones resources and abilities to help the Church and members of the Church. Churches I've been to don't really focus on practical application.

Example: When I was in Junior High, I was home alone and it was about dusk. (We lived in farm country) A man ran out of gas just down the road from us. Town was not an easy walk, but doable. He came to our house. Most farmers had large gas tanks on the premises. Ours had a combination lock on it that I always had difficulty opening. I usually couldn't get it to work for me. Anyway he asked to buy some gas. With him there I tried to open the lock and let him try to open the lock. We didn't succeed, so I sent him across the road to my neighbors. The husband was an elder in our church and his wife was my teacher in Sunday School. I figured the man was in good hands.

They had a long driveway so it was about 10-15 minutes (and now dark) by the time I heard him returning to the road. He was grumbling and cursing. He had to walk around the corner to the next farm.

I asked them the next day why they didn't give him any gas. They said he probably just wanted to see the combination so he could come back later and steal more gas. Needless to say I was very disillusioned. When I told my Dad what happened he changed the combination lock to a key lock so we'd never have to turn someone away because we couldn't get the lock open.

So while people do give willingly to the Church and use their resources to help the church, it doesn't always spill over into daily living and application.

One church I went to used this parable to promote the selling of Christianity to others. Increase membership.

Christianity today is very diverse in beliefs and doctrines. What's in the NT is not a picture of Christianity today. Religion evolves with society.

Jesus was very much about personal responsibility. We are responsible for our actions for better or worse. Many Christians use the "not perfected, only saved" bit to make excuses for not behaving correctly. The preacher who was stealing from our church said "he was still a work in progress." But he didn't stop stealing and the elders let him get by with it because "we aren't perfect."

Edited by purpledawn, : Removed statement


Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motion—for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in “The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion”

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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 198 of 229 (571560)
08-01-2010 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by pelican
08-01-2010 1:26 AM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
If you want to understand jar's take on Christianity read this column he wrote.

jar - On Christianity

Discussion of jar's philosophy is really off topic for this thread.

Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the Report discussion problems here: No.2 thread.

Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.

Thank you
AdminPD Purple


Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

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pelican
Member (Idle past 3677 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 199 of 229 (571670)
08-01-2010 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by purpledawn
08-01-2010 7:00 AM


Re: The Parable of the Talents
Thanks purpledawn, I think our personal experiences greatly influence our understanding of Jesus' teaching. It seems the parables are such that we can manipulate them to suit and to justify our behaviour. Regards

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Phat
Member
Posts: 14732
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 200 of 229 (590273)
11-07-2010 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
10-09-2004 6:17 PM


Re: Next Parable: The Shrewd Manager
Luke 16:1-9,NIV writes:

Jesus told his disciples: "There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. So he called him in and asked him, 'What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management, because you cannot be manager any longer.'
"The manager said to himself, 'What shall I do now? My master is taking away my job. I'm not strong enough to dig, and I'm ashamed to beg- I know what I'll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.'
"So he called in each one of his master's debtors. He asked the first, 'How much do you owe my master?'
"'Eight hundred gallons of olive oil,' he replied.
"The manager told him, 'Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it four hundred.' "Then he asked the second, 'And how much do you owe?' "'A thousand bushels of wheat,' he replied.
"He told him, 'Take your bill and make it eight hundred.'
"The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

This parable blew me away when I first read it. Does it mean that we are to strike deals with whomever can help us? Even as a Christian, I will strike a deal with either the union or my employer, whichever helps me to get the wages i deserve. Perhaps the point of the parable, however, is that it is friends and contacts who are important...not wages.

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jar
Member
Posts: 33013
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 201 of 229 (590277)
11-07-2010 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Phat
11-07-2010 10:33 AM


Re: Next Parable: The Shrewd Manager
Did you read the line "I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings."?

Is it set as a contrast to what went before?

Can worldly friends offer eternal dwellings?

Could it mean that you are to use worldly wealth here to help others?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 14732
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 202 of 229 (590280)
11-07-2010 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by jar
11-07-2010 11:03 AM


Re: Next Parable: The Shrewd Manager
jar writes:

Could it mean that you are to use worldly wealth here to help others?

Yes, but first one has to have worldly wealth. A nation of minimum wage workers (the so called jobs that are being created) cant help themselves, much less the neighbors.

And I know you, jar. You will probably reply something similar to this:

hypthetical writes:

Bullshit. The U.S. is one of the wealthiest nations on earth. It is our charge to do what we can for the rest of the world.

And I would reply that the world seems to be doing fine taking our jobs and the money that once belonged to us...on its own...

Of course, we are charged to feed and clothe the poor.

Returning to the Shrewd Manager.....

jar writes:

Can worldly friends offer eternal dwellings?

no, they can only offer concrete dwellings. My initial point was that it is not selfish for me to shrewdly do what I can to gain wealth for myself while I can. The issue is what I do with my wealth.

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jar
Member
Posts: 33013
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 203 of 229 (590284)
11-07-2010 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Phat
11-07-2010 11:15 AM


Re: Next Parable: The Shrewd Manager
So you say that the last line should be discarded and that the parts before that last line justify your behavior?

Is that not simply taking things out of context as was done to find Biblical support for slavery, segregation, denying equal rights to same-sex couples, destroying other religions, desecration of other religions sacred sites, Manifest Destiny ...?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 204 of 229 (590424)
11-08-2010 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by jar
11-07-2010 11:38 AM


Re: Next Parable: The Shrewd Manager
So you say that the last line should be discarded ...

Yes, jar.

C'mon.

If there is one line in the Bible which is definitely an interpolation, that's it.

Is that not simply taking things out of context ...

No --- it's the context that makes me so certain that it is an interpolation.


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 205 of 229 (590425)
11-08-2010 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Phat
11-07-2010 10:33 AM


Re: Next Parable: The Shrewd Manager
This parable blew me away when I first read it. Does it mean that we are to strike deals with whomever can help us? Even as a Christian, I will strike a deal with either the union or my employer, whichever helps me to get the wages i deserve. Perhaps the point of the parable, however, is that it is friends and contacts who are important...not wages.

The meaning seems plain enough if you ignore the stupid "explanation" of the meaning.

It's a parable. Like all Jesus' parables which on the surface are about economics, it is not in fact advice about economics and should not be followed as such.

What it's actually doing is presenting a paradox about grace and forgiveness. By their nature, all sins are sins against God. Therefore, we mere mortals have no moral right to go about forgiving people for their sins. That's downright blasphemy. And yet God prefers it if we do in fact do that. It's better than the alternative of not forgiving people their sins. He permits us to do so and wants us to do so even though we have absolutely no right to do so. This is what the parable means.


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iano
Member (Idle past 632 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 206 of 229 (590426)
11-08-2010 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by jaywill
05-25-2006 1:29 PM


All who call on the name of the Lord?
jaywill writes:

The Lord's teaching about those calling "Lord, Lord" and not doing the Father's will is not a parable but a plain teaching.

One day He will tell them that they were lawless. They will lose the reward of the reigning with Christ in His millennial kingdom. The teaching does not mean that they will lose eternal redemption. For everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Could you elaborate on this?

The context of the section is false pathways, false teachers and, it would appear, false profession. I see nothing in here to indicate that these particular callers on the name of the Lord are anything but damned.

quote:
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 632 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 207 of 229 (603784)
02-07-2011 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by iano
11-08-2010 7:33 AM


Re: All who call on the name of the Lord?
quote:
Could you elaborate on this?

The context of the section is false pathways, false teachers and, it would appear, false profession. I see nothing in here to indicate that these particular callers on the name of the Lord are anything but damned.


I have been out of the loop here for weeks so bear with me.

The words "Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness" do furnish some strong ground for your interpretation. Now maybe these are genuine Christians, saved by grace, but not under the authority of kingdom living. We should know that some servants of the Lord are rewarded and some are punished. And we should know that some servants are disciplined though they be saved afterwards.

Paul said some of the Corinthian believers would be saved yet so as through fire, losing a reward, yet themselves being saved.

I submit that though Justification by Faith is true, Reward of the saved is according to works out of transformation once having been eternally redeemed.

Now notice a few things:

The merciful shall obtain mercy in the kingdom of the heavens Matt. 5:7. Now one who rejects Christ and does not believe in the Son of God will perish. He cannot be saved because he is a merciful person.

So the mercy that the the merciful obtain should related not to eternal salvation but reward during the millennial kingdom after the second coming of Christ. Make sense ?

Likewise, "Judge not that you be not judged" (Matt. 7:1)
Now one who rejects the Son of God in unbelief will not be saved eternally because he refrains from judging. The Atheist who is merciful and the Atheist who judges not is still going to go to hell.

So this not being judged should related not to eternal redemption but reward or discipline during the millennial kingdom.

Even the saved Christian needs mercy in relation to his standing before the judgment seat of Christ. And the judgement seat of Christ is ONLY for those who have been eternally redeemed.

Paul says to Christians who are justified forever by faith:

"But you, why do you judge your BROTHER? Or you, who do you despise your BROTHER? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God ... So then each one of us will give an account concerning himself to God." (See Romans 14:10-12)

This is concerning Christian brothers interaction among themselves in the Christian church. Similarly we have this:

"For we [including the Apostle Paul] must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Chrtist, that each one may receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad. Knowing therefore the fear of the Lord, we [apostles] persuade men [ie. men who are Christians].

So the issue here is that Christians appear before which should also be "the judgment seat of God" not for the decision of thier eternal destiny, but for the decision as to their reward of position in Christ's kingdom before the eternal age - the millennial kingdom where all rewards to believers are dispensed.

You see Matthew and John have somewhat of a different frame of reference. John is mostly about repenting to believe into Christ for eternal life. Matthew is a repentence for not being for God, not being under God's authority - a repent FOR THE KINGDOM. Repent of not being under the administration of God.

I think that there is a bit of a difference in emphasis.

I shortened this post greatly.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


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thewordofgod 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3483 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 02-12-2011


Message 208 of 229 (604528)
02-12-2011 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
10-09-2004 3:08 AM


Phat writes:

I propose a thread that allows us to ask each other our interpretations of various parables in the Bible spoken by Jesus.Crashfrog and I had a discussion over a parableHERE.Before I add any more, does anyone have any other comments on the Parable of the Workers? I will repost it to get this thread started, as well as some of the initial responses. Admin: I propose this to be a topic for Faith and Belief. Are you OK with that?
Here was the first parable and some of the discussion connected with it:

NIVMatt 20:1-15 writes:


"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard. "About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' So they went. "He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'"'Because no one has hired us,' they answered. "He said to them,'You also go and work in my vineyard.'
"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.' "The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius.
When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner.'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.' "But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?


What does this parable mean to you?
crashfrog writes:

That the path to heaven is not faith, but works.
Seriously, though, the reason that the employer is wrong is because he's a liar:

quote:
He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.'
But then:
quote:
'I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'
He didn't pay them what was right, he paid them what he wanted to pay them, and tried to claim that that was right.Nobody gets to decide for others what is right and wrong. I see this as a powerful parable of how the employer will try to screw his workforce.
Crashfrog and I did not see this parable the same way. I thought that the offer was fair because the ones hired first got paid what they were promised. To me, it did not matter. Crashfrog asserted that the value per hour was different and thus discriminatory for the early workers. It is interesting, because in my life now, I recently got a job with Safeway. Safeway has many old timers who have worked there for 30 or more years and are making top wage of $15.66 hourly. I was given the same wage because I had prior experience with another unionized chain. Some of the safeway people who are not yet at top wage thought that my promotion to top wage was unfair. It is a provision in the union handbook known as prior experience, however, so they have no argument. From a human perspective, I would agree with them if someone made more than me, but as to the fairness of it, why is it unfair? If we all worked at a grocery store and the janitor stood around for 7 out of 8 hours, (which they do) are we mad that they get paid for doing nothing while we must work to earn our pay? After all, we all make the same wage.

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 10-09-2004 02:37 AM

This parable is about salvation for all God's people despite the jealous religious sinners who thought they should be the only people of the Lord's. Christians think they are the first hired workers and should be treated with higher wages but that won't happen. We all die in the flesh, even the flesh that God used for writing and speaking with. These men were the prophets, Jesus and us saints. Only we saints and Jesus got to experience being the law and commandments of God, called the Word.


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thewordofgod 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3483 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 02-12-2011


Message 209 of 229 (604529)
02-12-2011 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by thewordofgod
02-12-2011 10:10 PM


Here's another parable given by God
A Contract with the Landowner

A landowner rented his land to a farmer named Mr. Wise with a three year contract. After three years, Mr. Wise had lost money so he went to the landowner to renegociate a better contract and get the rent lowered.

The landowner told him if he rents it for more money than the last contract, then he would get a real good deal in the future. Mr. Wise went away discouraged but the idea of a good deal in the future was enough for him to keep farming the land.

Three more years went by but this time the weather wiped out his crops during the last year and cost him a substantial financial loss. Mr. Wise went to the landowner and demanded a better deal along with a loan to pay for his losses.

Instead of helping Mr. Wise out, the landowner told him if he rents the land for three more years at a higher rate than his neighbors contract for, then he would give him the best deal in the world. There was only one added demand to this contract and that was to eradicate every weed on his land.

Mr. Wise went away after agreeing with the new contract but he had no idea why he accepted it. He had to borrow money from his neighbors to make the payments to the landowner so he was getting into some serious financial trouble. However, he continued to farm and risk everything for this best deal in the world.

Not only did he lose money on this contract, he hurt his back by hoeing and pulling weeds for three years in row. He ended up in the hospital to have back surgery. This time the landowner came to him to ask Mr. Wise if he was ready to be a landowner. Mr. Wise was totally confused by this offer but he told him he would go for it.

Then the landowner gave Mr. Wise the title to the land, money to pay for all his financial losses and offered to pay for all hospital expenses for his back surgery. Mr. Wise was stunned by such a good deal because it was way more than he ever dreamed about.

The landowner had additional demands with this deal so after Mr. Wise calmed down, he told him since he was a new landowner that he had to stop farming. He also had to find a farmer to rent his land who was willing to be a landowner like himself one day.

The landowner told him he had plenty of land to make more deals with other farmers who were willing to sacrifice everything they had. All Mr.Wise had to do was to offer high price contracts to anyone who would accept it. No one becomes a landowner without giving up everything for it. Those who expect to get the land for free will have to wait for the big land giveaway in the new world.


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 210 of 229 (604530)
02-12-2011 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by thewordofgod
02-12-2011 10:16 PM


Re: Here's another parable given by God
God's literary style sure has declined in the last two thousand years.

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