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Author Topic:   Judges 19 - Sickest story in the bible
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 1 of 120 (241429)
09-08-2005 4:30 PM


I recently came accross this chapter in the bible and was quite appaled!
1 And it came to pass in those days, when there was no king in Israel, that there was a certain Levite sojourning on the side of mount Ephraim, who took to him a concubine out of Bethlehemjudah.
2 And his concubine played the whore against him, and went away from him unto her father’s house to Bethlehemjudah, and was there four whole months.
3 And her husband arose, and went after her, to speak friendly unto her, and to bring her again, having his servant with him, and a couple of asses: and she brought him into her father’s house: and when the father of the damsel saw him, he rejoiced to meet him.
4 And his father in law, the damsel’s father, retained him; and he abode with him three days: so they did eat and drink, and lodged there.
5 And it came to pass on the fourth day, when they arose early in the morning, that he rose up to depart: and the damsel’s father said unto his son in law, Comfort thine heart with a morsel of bread, and afterward go your way.
6 And they sat down, and did eat and drink both of them together: for the damsel’s father had said unto the man, Be content, I pray thee, and tarry all night, and let thine heart be merry.
7 And when the man rose up to depart, his father in law urged him: therefore he lodged there again.
8 And he arose early in the morning on the fifth day to depart: and the damsel’s father said, Comfort thine heart, I pray thee. And they tarried until afternoon, and they did eat both of them.
9 And when the man rose up to depart, he, and his concubine, and his servant, his father in law, the damsel’s father, said unto him, Behold, now the day draweth toward evening, I pray you tarry all night: behold, the day groweth to an end, lodge here, that thine heart may be merry; and to morrow get you early on your way, that thou mayest go home.
10 But the man would not tarry that night, but he rose up and departed, and came over against Jebus, which is Jerusalem; and there were with him two asses saddled, his concubine also was with him.
11 And when they were by Jebus, the day was far spent; and the servant said unto his master, Come, I pray thee, and let us turn in into this city of the Jebusites, and lodge in it.
12 And his master said unto him, We will not turn aside hither into the city of a stranger, that is not of the children of Israel; we will pass over to Gibeah.
13 And he said unto his servant, Come, and let us draw near to one of these places to lodge all night, in Gibeah, or in Ramah.
14 And they passed on and went their way; and the sun went down upon them when they were by Gibeah, which belongeth to Benjamin.
15 And they turned aside thither, to go in and to lodge in Gibeah: and when he went in, he sat him down in a street of the city: for there was no man that took them into his house to lodging.
16 And, behold, there came an old man from his work out of the field at even, which was also of mount Ephraim; and he sojourned in Gibeah: but the men of the place were Benjamites.
17 And when he had lifted up his eyes, he saw a wayfaring man in the street of the city: and the old man said, Whither goest thou? and whence comest thou?
18 And he said unto him, We are passing from Bethlehemjudah toward the side of mount Ephraim; from thence am I: and I went to Bethlehemjudah, but I am now going to the house of the LORD; and there is no man that receiveth me to house.
19 Yet there is both straw and provender for our asses; and there is bread and wine also for me, and for thy handmaid, and for the young man which is with thy servants: there is no want of any thing.
20 And the old man said, Peace be with thee; howsoever let all thy wants lie upon me; only lodge not in the street.
21 So he brought him into his house, and gave provender unto the asses: and they washed their feet, and did eat and drink.
22 Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.
23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.
24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.
25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.
26 Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light.
27 And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.
28 And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.
29 And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.
30 And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds.
After this story, the isrealites go out and slay all the people of Benjamine. I guess in retribution?
What the heck is the point of this tale? And Why does the asshole husband come out on top with no punishment? Is there realy a justification for this story?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 09-08-2005 8:01 PM Yaro has not replied
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 Message 8 by arachnophilia, posted 09-08-2005 10:25 PM Yaro has not replied
 Message 9 by PaulK, posted 09-09-2005 3:16 AM Yaro has not replied
 Message 12 by purpledawn, posted 09-09-2005 8:36 AM Yaro has not replied
 Message 15 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-21-2005 8:46 PM Yaro has not replied
 Message 92 by riVeRraT, posted 10-30-2005 7:29 AM Yaro has replied
 Message 107 by Christian7, posted 10-31-2005 9:23 PM Yaro has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 5 of 120 (241532)
09-08-2005 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminBen
09-08-2005 7:32 PM


Your av,,, looks familiar...
Is that a statue of the Robot in "Laputa: Castle in the sky"?
I love that cartoon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminBen, posted 09-08-2005 7:32 PM AdminBen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by AdminBen, posted 09-08-2005 10:12 PM Yaro has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 63 of 120 (251694)
10-14-2005 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by iano
10-14-2005 7:57 AM


Re: God lies.
It would be helpful if you point out the lie in your links FL. In one of them God sends a delusion in order that someone would believe a lie. Now if you can just produce the bit where the lie itself eminates from God, instead of someone else it would be helpful to making your point. A bare quote by itself won't cut it.
iano, your a smart guy, certainly you know that you don't have to acctually commit the crime to be held accountable for it. If I hire a hit man to kill someone, I'm just as guilty as the hitman.
If god, all knowing as he is, intentionaly sends dellusions to people in order that they fall for certain (unspecified) lies, god is accomplice to an evil act. He is lying.
Besides, delusions in and of themselves are a sort of lie. And god is sending them:
de·lu·sion Pronunciation Key (d-lzhn)
n.
1.
1. The act or process of deluding.
2. The state of being deluded.
2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
3. Psychiatry. A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by iano, posted 10-14-2005 7:57 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by iano, posted 10-14-2005 10:51 AM Yaro has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 66 of 120 (251728)
10-14-2005 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by iano
10-14-2005 10:51 AM


Re: God lies.
The delusion is a functional issue not a material one. He is turning satans own weapons on those who follow satan.
Ok, I can buy that, but a lie is a lie is a lie. Even if done for good intentions
None the less, this is not the only instance where this has occured. I seem to recall a portion in the Old Testament, I think it was Iseah or something. God is said to have put a lying heart into someone...
I'll have to look it up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by iano, posted 10-14-2005 10:51 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by iano, posted 10-14-2005 11:37 AM Yaro has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 80 of 120 (252972)
10-19-2005 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by DorfMan
10-18-2005 10:59 PM


Re: Imagine
...
The sin of Sodom and Ghamora was not being kind to "Orphans and Widows." That's what the bible says.
Second, the bible says his daughters were virgins so they must have been.
Third, Lot's action of offering the mob his daughters is reprehensible and inexcusable. Try telling that to a jury.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by DorfMan, posted 10-18-2005 10:59 PM DorfMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by arachnophilia, posted 10-19-2005 10:23 PM Yaro has not replied
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 93 of 120 (255627)
10-30-2005 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by riVeRraT
10-30-2005 7:29 AM


Re: What God gave us
I guess what God should have really gave us when Moses went to the mountain was some plans for local hotels, some cell phones, and a police station. This way things like this would never happen.
Ya know, this ain't as crazy as you think. I'm surprised god didn't bless his people with a modern system of justice. That sure would have given the people a happier life filled with less bloodshed.
There would be no need for hospitality, woman would never get raped, the guilty would never get away with things, and wars would never happen.
Well, I wouldn't expect utopia, but the OT revels in this sort of primitive violence. I mean, what kind of a punishment is stoning someone to death? Or slavery? Or any of the other atrocities the OT claims is just.
I just love it when people compare things that happened thousands of years ago, by todays standards. Then you realize, things haven't changed one bit.
I don't know what your talking about. While we may not be perfect, the modern world is much MUCH better off than the primitives described in the bible. We have real systems of justice, that at least attempt to have punishments that fit the crimes. That at least give a nod to fairness, due process, rehabilitation. You can find nothing of the sort in the bible.
Just what was it like to live back then, and why did they have the rules they had, is what you should ask yourself.
Ah. So much for objective morality then eh? So there was a point in time when it was ok to send your concubine (not to mention the very concept of a concubine) to a mob, in order that she be raped to death.
Please tell me your joking.
Stories like Judges 19, among others, are an indictment about the primitive mentality of people at the time. It is further proof of the incongruity of the OT to modern life. Why should we honer a book that proscribes rape, infantaside, stoning, as just punishments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by riVeRraT, posted 10-30-2005 7:29 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by riVeRraT, posted 10-30-2005 4:53 PM Yaro has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 97 of 120 (255724)
10-30-2005 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by riVeRraT
10-30-2005 4:53 PM


Re: What God gave us
That’s exactly what he did when he delivered his people from Egypt. Only thing is you or I have a hard time relating to it, because we really just don't fully comprehend what it was like to be alive in those times. We only have drips and drabs of what went on.
I don't buy that. I think we have a very good idea what it was like. We can observe current primative cultures and societies that were similar to those back in the days of the OT. Heck, look at the taliban or Saudi Arabia. Theocracy rarely produces humanitarian gvt.
In any case, I don't see how the times have anything to do with it. Harsh conditions doesn't make rape or stoning right. That's why we prosecute people for war crimes. There are some acts which are simply inexcusable and unjust despite the conditions.
The world has not changed one bit since those times.
... Hmmm... didn't you just sugest that we couldn't possibly know what it was like back then? I think your contradictiong yourself.
Either the world is very different today, or it isn't make up your mind. Any way you cut it, the ancient hebrew laws are dumb, outadetd, and primative.
People are still put to death, slavery still exists in its rawest form, and in a way that we don't yet fathom, and flying planes into the Twin Towers, or the Oklahoma City bombing is not an atrocity?
All these things are true. I don't claim that we live in a utopia today. But when you look at the numbers there is truely a greater number of people living better today than there ever were in days long past.
Remember, it was just in the 1900's the average life expectancy for an adult was around 45-50 years old. In the middle ages it was about 35-40. In the days of the caveman we were lucky to get to 20 with all our teeth.
We are better off today, even if things aren't perfect. I think alot of that can easily be atributed to greater advancements in thought.
The pollution we have done to this planet, the disease we have created, and pumped our bodies and streams full of chemicals till offspring with 3 eyes start appearing?
Yes, bad stuff, but the same technology that polutes allows us to create technology that doesn't. Look at the nuclear bomb, horrible destructive force. Yet without it we would not have many of the lifesaving medical treatments for cancer and other illnesses we have today.
It's a give and take. And while I agree that we have not done great things to the environment, we will remedy it as time goes by. (at least I hope so!).
Yea, the world is a much better place, really it is, keep telling yourself that.
Well, I'm sorry you hate it so much. I'm just glad I wasn't born in the middle ages where I could have died of dissentery at the age of 15 after being married off to someone years my senior with bad teeth and too much hair
It's all relative. The punishments for the crimes back then, were relatively correct. Society was scarce, and maybe things like policemen patrolling the streets, and prisons were few and far between, so a law of the land had to be laid down.
Would you rape someone if you knew that when you get caught, that you would be stoned to death? There wasn't much of a justice system, or a decent way to enforce it, so the punishments were more severe.
I both agree and dissagree. I agree with the idea that harsh conditions will breed harshe societies. However, just because conditions were harsh, does not make stoning someone to death a humane punishment.
It's still practiced today in some countries despite modern conveniences. Look at Iran. Modern country, primative, backward laws.
There is never a case where stoning someone is a just punishment for a crime.
Take a look at the way some of these third world countries live.
I grew up in a third world country. Poor people, govt. coruption, bad traffic. We still didn't stone people in the streets for crimes. We still had the rule of law, due process, etc.
Places that are void of enforcement, and you'll start to get a better picture. It's probably the reason they still believe in eye for an eye.p.
Now... a place like Ruanda, Haiti, etc. I see where you are getting at. These places are more like 4th world IMHO IMHO Americans tend to think of the 3rd world as this crazy post-apocalyptic wasteland full of free ranging chickens and warlords.
They are countries, just like any other. They just happen to be poorer and more agrarian at times. But just because they are poor does not make them lawless trashdumps. I lived in both Costa Rica and the Dominican Republic for a good part of my life and they are nothing like the "bannana republics" depicted in the Ameican psyche.
In any case, back to your assertion that a 3rd world country would have more "eye for eye" mentalities due to environmental pressure. My point is so what?
Just cuz your starving does not make it ok to start eating the babys of the neighboring tribe.
The world doesn't need to be filled with second chances, it needs to be righteous, so that God may enter into our lives, and we can be one with God.. But God knew this wasn't possible, so he gave us his Son.
Sigh... he's god. How can anything be impossible for him?
The way I see it, is that he had no choice in the matter. He did because he had no coice. It wasn't the husbands fault. You know this by his reaction afterwards.
Hmmmmm.... nope. I don't buy it. He was a little sniveling wimpy ass coward and he himself should have been executed for his crime.
What kind of man is that? "Don't kill me, here take her. Rape the shit outta her. Just don't hurt me."
Fuck that! I'd die first!
Shit... no choice in the matter... He basicaly proved himself a spineless scumbag. But the bible doesn't paint him as such... go figure...
Yes and no Yaro. If the earth entered into a 3rd world war, and had a nuke fest, and most of the population was wiped out, there would be no doubt in my mind that the current way of society as we know would just be thrown out the window, and we would have to start all over again, having learned absolutely nothing from the ways of our past.
Maybe. It doesn't make it right. And as they progress back to our level of society they will undoubtedly "rediscover" the ways that were lost.
I bet you would even have to discover the hard way that living like that was a "necessary evil" (we only perceive it as evil now) and you would be forced into living like that, if you were dropped into those conditions. In order to survive, and in order to bring your righteous way of thinking into the future. And I do think that you are a righteous thinker.
Ya, I agree. A harsh environment/harsh society can breed all sorts of... harshness ... it still doesn't make it right! That's my point. God could have established the isrealites with a true civil govt. I mean, it's god! he could have made sure it worked out...
meh... you know what I mean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by riVeRraT, posted 10-30-2005 4:53 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by riVeRraT, posted 10-31-2005 8:37 AM Yaro has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 102 of 120 (255812)
10-31-2005 2:07 PM


Take My wife, Please!
Nothing to add yet, just couldn't get that subtitle outta my mind and I had to post it

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 110 of 120 (256459)
11-03-2005 8:59 AM


Everyone MUST look at this
The Brick Testament
Here is a depiction of the story in Judges 19.

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 11-03-2005 4:58 PM Yaro has not replied
 Message 112 by Coragyps, posted 11-03-2005 5:53 PM Yaro has not replied
 Message 114 by DeclinetoState, posted 04-15-2006 7:21 PM Yaro has not replied

  
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