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Author Topic:   Judges 19 - Sickest story in the bible
Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 120 (245635)
09-22-2005 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Cold Foreign Object
09-21-2005 8:46 PM


What of the similar stories in which God causes, orders or clearly condones (some would say that's the case here) the "wretchedness"?
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1212 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 17 of 120 (245746)
09-22-2005 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Funkaloyd
09-22-2005 1:11 AM


What of the similar stories in which God causes, orders or clearly condones (some would say that's the case here) the "wretchedness"?

Its not the case here in the Judges account, and if someone disagrees then they need to make the argument. When it is the case, that is when God orders the destruction of a nation or peoples it is because He has decided this is judgement for their sins and rebellion.

The point is: whatever God DOES or SAYS is righteous because of who He is. Righteousness is whatever God does or says because nobody can put Him in His place.

When Sodom was destroyed it was for good reason. The Bible does not report the specific sins for which Sodom was judged. We have to look to Midrashi sources and the book of Jasher, of which supply the details that corroborate the Genesis record.

Sodom was a very wealthy city, self contained, extremely "nationalistic" with a blind hatred to almost all outsiders. When a foreigner would come upon their city he would be welcomed with a party, then the next day they would turn on him and tie him to a post in the middle of town, and leave him there to starve to death forbidding anyone to feed him.

When the king of Sodom met Abraham after his victory the Genesis account says he, the king of Sodom, wanted nothing of the spoils except the prisoners (14:21). IOW, the king of Sodom didn't care about the spoil because they were rich and wanted the persons for various wicked purposes, even though Abraham gave it all to him anyway.

Whomever God has destroyed is because they refused to heed His warnings.

Genesis 15:13-16

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

The Armorites are the primary peoples of Canaan. God is telling Abram that their time for repentance is still open; that their "iniquity is not yet full." God gave them 400 years ! And when He was about to bring the children of Israel into Canaan the Scriptures tell us the peoples of that land were frightened but still refused to obey God. Rahab the harlot at Jericho is the only person (not counting the Gibeonites) who at the last moment did something of which God honored and spared her.

The message to us is no different; either do what God says or your lot is the fate of anyone in the Bible who refused to heed God's warnings.

Herepton


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mark24
Member (Idle past 3360 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 18 of 120 (245759)
09-22-2005 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Cold Foreign Object
09-22-2005 1:52 PM


So why didn't god just send them to hell when they died? People & nations have commited far greater crimes against other people & nations & god apparently "forgot" to smite them.
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Stranger
Member (Idle past 3447 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 09-27-2005


Message 19 of 120 (246850)
09-27-2005 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Cold Foreign Object
09-22-2005 1:52 PM


Why does god not do this now? Why are we spared?
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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1351 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 20 of 120 (247320)
09-29-2005 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Cold Foreign Object
09-22-2005 1:52 PM


The point is: whatever God DOES or SAYS is righteous because of who He is. Righteousness is whatever God does or says because nobody can put Him in His place.

So....God is Good by definition, becuase nobody can kick His ass and say otherwise? Might makes right?

Wow. If I follow that example, anything a man with a gun does is "good," becuase nobody withut a gun can "put him in his place." If I'm stronger than you, if I have more power than you, I can do whatever the hell I want, right up to rape, murder, and theft, simply because I can?

This has to be the most immoral and senseless description of what defines right and wrong I have ever heard. I would never worship a "god" who defines right and wrong as "whatever I say, becasue I'm bigger than you." I don't worship bullies.

You know, Hitler had more power than most other people on Earth. If the Allies had not opposed him, would the Holocaust have been "good," since nobody would have "put him in his place?"

Sodom was a very wealthy city, self contained, extremely "nationalistic" with a blind hatred to almost all outsiders. When a foreigner would come upon their city he would be welcomed with a party, then the next day they would turn on him and tie him to a post in the middle of town, and leave him there to starve to death forbidding anyone to feed him.

And so this justified the murder of the children present in the city who were too young to have taken part or even understood the injustices you mention...how exactly?

And this is not the reason commonly attributed to the destruction of Sodom and Gamorrah. The vast majority of fundamentalists and literalists believe it was due to a preponerance of homosexual sex! I'm not sure where you're getting your information.

Everything in your post points to God being a bully, an iron-fisted despot who kills and destroys on a whim entire nations and cities, for the mere crime of disobedience. You then call it "justice" becasue He's more powerful than anyone else.

God is not a schoolyard bully. The very idea that God is good by definition simply because He's more powerful than anyone else is, frankly, despicable.


Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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christ_fanatic
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 120 (248615)
10-03-2005 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by berberry
09-08-2005 10:06 PM


Re: Good Question
You may want to reread Genesis 19. Lot's daughters are the one's who got him so drunk that he didn't know they were in his bed, but you could still put the blame on him for getting drunk in the first place. Besides, just because the Bible reports something doesn't mean that it approves of it. Please tell me where Paul refers to Lot as righteous, I can't remember where he does.

This message has been edited by christ_fanatic, 10-03-2005 04:32 PM


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christ_fanatic
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 120 (248616)
10-03-2005 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by mark24
09-22-2005 3:06 PM


It's a simple solution if you think about it.
Eventually, every nation falls, and you have to remember this, those that God smote were more wicked than we can probably begin to imagine. The worst in our societies were probably the ones that the people in the nations would have called sissy. We could take a quick look at the Assyrians for an example.
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christ_fanatic
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 120 (248618)
10-03-2005 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Stranger
09-27-2005 11:34 PM


God's ways are not ours.
"Why does god not do this now?" You ask. The best answer I can give is that God will judge when He judges all. This way, all that victims of the evils that have been committed can see the one who committed it get their dues.
"Why are we spared?" Who says we will be. We will all be judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ (for the believers) or at the Great White Throne Judgement (for the unbelievers), so any way we look at it, we will get what we deserve.
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16626
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 24 of 120 (248627)
10-03-2005 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by christ_fanatic
10-03-2005 4:26 PM


righteous Lot
christ_fanatic writes:

Please tell me where Paul refers to Lot as righteous, I can't remember where he does.

Took me all of ten seconds to find it:

quote:
2Pe 2:7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked
2Pe 2:8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);


People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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christ_fanatic
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 120 (248639)
10-03-2005 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by CK
09-09-2005 5:44 AM


God doesn't kill little children.
I see you are probably using the KJV, what the Bible makes mention to as "youths" is very likely what we would call a gang. Otherwise, why would Elisha feel his life was in danger and ask God for help?
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15037
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 26 of 120 (248649)
10-03-2005 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by christ_fanatic
10-03-2005 5:10 PM


Re: God doesn't kill little children.
quote:

why would Elisha feel his life was in danger and ask God for help?

Looking at the story it doesn't seem that Elisha feels that his life is in danger or call on God for protection. It looks to me more like anger, than fear:


Then he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number.

(NASB)$
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16626
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 27 of 120 (248652)
10-03-2005 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by christ_fanatic
10-03-2005 5:10 PM


Re: God doesn't kill little children.
christ_fanatic writes:

what the Bible makes mention to as "youths" is very likely what we would call a gang.

Okay, this is the KJV:

quote:
2Ki 2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2Ki 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tore forty and two children of them.

And this is the JPS:

quote:
2Ki 2:23 And he went up from thence unto Beth-el; and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him: 'Go up, thou baldhead; go up, thou baldhead.'
2Ki 2:24 And he looked behind him and saw them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she-bears out of the wood, and tore forty and two children of them.

And this is the ESV:

quote:
2Ki 2:23 He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, "Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!"
2Ki 2:24 And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys.

What version are you using, that talks about a "gang"? And where does it say anything about Elisha fearing for his life?


People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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mark24
Member (Idle past 3360 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 28 of 120 (248689)
10-03-2005 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by christ_fanatic
10-03-2005 4:31 PM


Re: It's a simple solution if you think about it.
christ_fanatic,

Eventually, every nation falls, and you have to remember this, those that God smote were more wicked than we can probably begin to imagine.

So what did the cities of Sodom/Gomorrah have on Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc? They couldn't be guilty of cruelty on such a modern scale.

The worst in our societies were probably the ones that the people in the nations would have called sissy. We could take a quick look at the Assyrians for an example.

And what did the Assyrians have on Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc? They couldn't be guilty of cruelty on such a modern scale.

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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renaissance guy
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 120 (250527)
10-10-2005 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by ringo
10-03-2005 5:38 PM


Re: God doesn't kill little children.
thought this might help [children] Hebrew: na ar (HSN-5288), child—anywhere from infancy to adolescence. It generally implies youth, but not always, for the word is used of Isaac when he was 28 (Genesis 22:5), of Joseph at 39 (Genesis 41:12), and of Rehoboam when fully grown (2 Chron. 13:7). These "little children" were the infidel young men of Bethel who worshiped the golden calf instead of Jehovah. God sent the bears, so we must believe the offenders were worthy of such judgment. And [bald head] According to some authorities, "bald head" didn't refer to a lack of hair, but signified a worthless man; it was a term of contempt. Here it was equal to blasphemy for the young men mocked Elisha as a prophet of Jehovah, in contemptuous allusion to the translation of Elijah, which they no doubt denied. The idea seems to be: "Be translated like Elijah, you worthless man!"
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Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 120 (250592)
10-10-2005 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by renaissance guy
10-10-2005 5:50 PM


Re: God doesn't kill little children.
God sent the bears, so we must believe the offenders were worthy of such judgment.

So if the "little children" were nothing more than idolatrous jeerers, it would have been wrong for God to tear them apart?


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