Christian Laws

List:1.) "Abide in Me and I in you."This basic command has the effect of weeding out false disciples.Some have no interest to follow the Master. These must labor to justify and rationalize their refusal to let Jesus be Lord.It is a tragic waste of time when one could instead be learning patiently to follow Him.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Obviously life can be very complex. There is no Bible verse telling us exactly what to do in billions of situations.

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Exactly!Like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves.We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families.There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before. Message 114

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You're trying to push me into imagining a New Testament with a trillion pages of commandments covering all manner of very detailed situations. So we need the living Lord along with the living word.

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No I'm not. I agree we shouldn't stagnate in laws over 2000 years old.

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Let this sink into your ears. All the diciples of Jesus are bound to make mistakes. Paul made mistakes and he was quite mature. So did Peter and John make mistakes. We cannot abvoid as disciples of Jesus to make mistakes.

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I agree. Never said people didn't make mistakes, but to repent one must know what is considered incorrect. Christianity isn't consistently clear.Edited by purpledawn, : Msg #

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I do not know much about Hillel. I do know that even in the Old Testament God exposed defects in the people's appresension of His commands. In some of the prophets we see God speaking about the superfisciality with which the people were adhering to commandments when thier hearts were far from Him.He spoke of those "uncircumcised in heart," for example. In the New Testament it is a matter of God Himself coming to live in man. This is a matter of Christ's life becoming our life, who have receive Him into our beings. This is very subjective and makes Christ's life our life. The phrase "Christ our life" means that Jesus Himself has become the believer's possession. This does not refer to the Adamic natural life which we are all born with. All humans inherited the natural life from Adam.In addition to the natural life inherited from Adam, the believer in Christ receives Christ Himself as a new life which she must learn to live by. When Paul tells the Christians that "our life is hidden with Christ in God" (Col. 3:3) he does not refer to the Adamic natural life, whether good or bad. The only life that can be hidden with Christ in God is the divine life, the very life of Christ.God would never allow the natural fallen life to be hidden with Christ in God. Only Christ's life could be such. And this life Paul says is "our life".This means that in the new covenant God dispenses the divine life, and the divine Person of Christ into man. God, Christ, and the believers in Christ share one life. In other words God mingles Himself with man so that man can live Christ, live by Christ, and live out Christ.For "Our life is hidden with Christ in God ... Christ our life" means that God, Christ, and the believers in Christ share one life.We all have lived by our natural life all our natural lives. We have to learn, as Christians, to ABIDE in Christ our life and learn to walk and live by the divine life that has been dispensed into us. As I previously stressed Christ's command "Abide in Me and I in you." I don't know if I can agree in the sense that you intend here. The most important New Testament law is probably "the law of the Spirit of life" (Rom. 8:2) I previously wrote that Christ, the resurrected and living Lord, has become the very life of the Christians. He is "Christ our life". His life has a law which spontaneously lives absolute unto the will of the Father. To walk by this indwelling and living Person is to be freed from the law of sin and of death and to spontaneously, without struggle, fulfill the righteous requirement of the law.This life of Jesus with its law of life can be installed in man with his innermost being, his spirit. Then he must learn to set the mind on the regenerated spirit and walk in union with the indwelling Christ. That is to think, to talk, to react, to remember, to imagine, to plan, to live daily in this realm. Then the most important Christian law (if there is one), the law of the Spirit of life ... in Christ Jesus regulates his conduct and causes him to express Jesus Christ.The Scripture is there to feed, nourish, sensitize the conscience, and provide something like "train tracks" for the new covenant people revealing the way generally, in which the indwelling Spirit of Christ is directing them. The book of Galatians is all about Christ bringing the Christians back from struggling to keep the law of Moses, after being saved, to walking by the Spirit.There Paul is clear that it was God's will to reveal His Son in Paul. And Paul is of course just a representative of the normal Christian disciple. God's pleasure was for this resurrected and living Person to be revealed in the Christians. Christ has become thier life as I wrote before. And since Paul knew that God will for Christ to be expressed in him, he labored for Christ to be formed in the Galatian Christians: He does not mean here the initial coming of Christ into their spirit to cause them to be reborn. He means that they need this Christ to take shape within them, be formed in them in their daily living.Paul stresses that the Spirit of Christ to come into them is what has constituted them sons of God sharing the divine life: The Spirit who has come into our hearts is Christ Himself in His pneumatic form - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) And to give life really means to give God. God in Christ given to the believers becomes thier sphere and realm to live to fulfill His eternal purpose. This matter of confession and repentence must go along with the conviction of the Holy Spirit with the word of God. It deepens as the Christian grows in the divine life.The more light from God the more we see our faults. The more we confess the more the life grows. The more the life grows the brighter the light shines. With brighter light there is yet deeper confession, deeper repentence. Then there is more growth in life and subsequently more penetrating light. With more light there is more confession still.This is like a cycle which goes on and on until either we sleep in Christ (expire) or He returns to find us alive on earth at His second coming. This cycle never ends until the consummation of the New Jerusalem in the eternal age.Since we need all the transformation we can get with the time we have, there is no time to waste. The sooner we get saved the sooner we can allow this transforming Spirit of Christ to begin to operate in us, conforming us to the image of Jesus: This gradual transformation into the image of Christ by the indwelling Person of Christ as the Spirit, is the salvation of the soul. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I have a further word to speak about Christ being the life of the Christian.The law of Moses above and outside of man, in the new covenant, is replaced by Christ indwelling man. Human words are limited to express this mystery adequately. But phrases like "the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus ..." as Spirit provided utterances to express the experience.Man should not stop with doctrinal knowledge but go on to experience the living Person of Christ practically in daily life.When Christ comes into us we see that it is impossible to seperate a person from his life. Nothing is more subjective to us, or more intimately related to us than our own life. And the Bible says to the saved "Christ our life" . Jesus becomes subjective to the disciples of Jesus to the uttermost. Our life is ourselves. If we did not have life we would cease to be.God's will is to bring man forward from law keeping to live Christ as his life. This is possible because "the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45). God can give life, meaning give Himself, into man's being. He comes to man as Jesus Christ in the form of a life giving Spirit. And with this Spirit is "the law of the Spirit of life ... in Christ Jesus."The phrase "Christ our life" is a strong indication that the believers should take the living Person of Jesus today and live by Him. If all that Jesus has obtained and attained remains objective to man he has not entered into salvation. The resurrected Person of Jesus must become subjective to man ... "Christ our life".Colossians 3:4 speaks of "Christ our life". The law of Moses without man is replaced by the indwelling life of Christ in man subjectively. Christ is God and also the ZOE life, the divine life (1 John 5:12). The life which is God, the life that is God, is in Jesus Christ (John 1:4).Because the life of God is in Jesus Christ and is Jesus Christ, Jesus said "I am ... the life" (John 14:6) And because He is this divine and eternal life He said "I am the resurrection and the life" (John 11:25)This life demonstrates its eternality by resurrection from the dead. This life overcomes death, depression, oppression, and all things contrary to God and the vitality of God. Because Jesus is the life of God incarnate as a man He said that He is the life. But He also said that He came that we might have this divine life - "The thief does not come except to steak and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life and may have it abundantly." (John 10:10)Therefore the life that He is He came to dispense into man that man may have life and that more abundantly. He gives Himself to man. He installs Himself in man to mingle with man. Then God becomes the believer's life.Just as life is God Himself, so also life is Christ. Just as having this divine life is having God Himself, so also having this divine life is having Christ. Christ is God becoming life to us. Through Christ God is manifested as life. Therefore the Christians can follow the Apostle Paul to declare Christ is now our life.

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In the New Testament it is a matter of God Himself coming to live in man. This is a matter of Christ's life becoming our life, who have receive Him into our beings. This is very subjective and makes Christ's life our life.

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"When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory." (Col. 3:4)

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Nice visual, but practical application is the key, not just more catch phrases.Colossians 3:4 Parallel Bible Christ may be your life, but that doesn't make Christ's life your life. It just means those who have devoted their life to better behavior as taught by Christ, they will be with him in glory when he appears.The writer's point, as was Hillel's and that of Jesus was Paul and pseudo Paul gave their audiences the practical application of their time. What's the practical application of these characteristics in a Christian today?As I said, "We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families."

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For "Our life is hidden with Christ in God ... Christ our life" means that God, Christ, and the believers in Christ share one life.

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Actually the writer is speaking to his audience, not us.

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We all have lived by our natural life all our natural lives. We have to learn, as Christians, to ABIDE in Christ our life and learn to walk and live by the divine life that has been dispensed into us. As I previously stressed Christ's command "Abide in Me and I in you."

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Again, nice creative writing, but no practical application, which really is the point of this thread. Get past the catch phrases, the metaphors and the creative writing and give plain unvarnished practical application of what the Master wants.

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PD writes:

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I agree. Never said people didn't make mistakes, but to repent one must know what is considered incorrect. Christianity isn't consistently clear.

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This matter of confession and repentence must go along with the conviction of the Holy Spirit with the word of God. It deepens as the Christian grows in the divine life.

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The more light from God the more we see our faults. The more we confess the more the life grows. The more the life grows the brighter the light shines. With brighter light there is yet deeper confession, deeper repentence. Then there is more growth in life and subsequently more penetrating light. With more light there is more confession still.

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Still all smoke and mirrors, but no substance. No practical application. To repent, one must know what is considered incorrect.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This Hymn 541 expresses the New Covenant verses the Old Testament Law keeping well. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

My quota of time for discussion is ebbing for this afternoon. But I'll address a few of Purpledawn's comments I did not quote the verse to provide a "nice visual". That's what you noticed simply because I chose to quote the entire sentence and not just the particular words relevant to my point.But since you bring up the visual aspect I will show you that it is ALSO related to my point:You probably do not understand "glory" here in the proper way. In Second Thessalonians 1:10 it speaks of the coming glory radiantly coming not merely with Christ from heaven. There is the expression, the glory coming from Christ WITHIN and IN the believers: The Christ that the believers have lived has been hidden, except in the character of thier behavior. In His second coming His believers (especially those overcoming and not defeated) will manifest this indwelling one as glory, a glory to be "marveled at in all those who have believed".Since this experience has not happened yet it is hard for us to speak too much about it. But we believe in it. And Christ who is our life is also our indwelling hope of glory.Now let's look at your quotations Yes it does. That is why Paul said "For me to LIVE is Christ" (Phil. 1:27) .In other words Jesus Christ CONTINUES to live on the earth. But this time IN PAUL, and in principle in EVERY Christian. Paul was very faithful. We who follow should also be so faithful to manifest Christ. So we do have Christ Himself as our life.Here again Paul says that the life of Jesus might be manifested in the longsuffering bodies of the apostles (as our leaders and examples): Jesus is resurrected and living again in the apostles as leaders, and in all Christians as followers in principle of thier wonderful example. The life of Jesus today can be manifested in our bodies.This matter of the resurrected and living Jesus in the apostles Paul calls the treasure in the earthen vessel whose power is not of them but of God: They were indwelt with by Jesus, who had become to man "a life giving Spirit". And they considered themselves only earthen vessels to contain this living treasure.Here again in Philippians we see that Paul's longings were the longings of Jesus Christ within him: Christ was so mingled with Paul that for Paul to long in his inward parts for the Philippians was his longing "in the inward parts of Christ Jesus". Christ's life was disptributed to Paul. And Christ's life is distributed to everyone who recieves Jesus into their heart.It is through FAITH that we can receive the life of Jesus into our own hearts: Instead of staggering at the promise in unbelief, we should believe the New Testament and become "imitators of those who through faith and long-suffering are inheriting the promises." (Hebrews 5:12)In his dealing with the troublesome Corinthian church, Paul takes up to challenge from them the Christ is speaking through him: I like this passage because it does not argue only that Christ is speaking in Paul but that He is powerful in the Corinthian Christians as well. Otherwise we might think that Paul was only vindicating himself. Actually he is vindicating more than Christ in Paul, he is reminding his audience of Christian that Christ is also powerful in them in like manner. It is true that they devote their lives to Jesus. But this Jesus is within them as the hope of the glory. And this glory will be marveled at IN THOSE who have believed. So it is more than simply an objective glory at Christ's coming. It is the outshining glory from within the believer's. In short it is because of Christ who is their life, ie. Christ's life has been thier life.It is Jesus living again as the house wife, as the employee, as the janitor, as the executive, as the soccer mom, as the school kid, as the college student, as the working man or woman, as the hospital patient, even as the soldier, as the politician, as the grocer, as the man on the street, as the woman in the office, etc.It is Jesus Christ Himself living again on the earth in an incorporated and mingled way with His lover: It is the glory from within, from the life of the ones who have learned to abide in Him so that He in turn abides in them. Speak for yourself, why don't you?
I am in the audience of today's disciples of Jesus and the letter speaks to me.Perhaps you are in unbelief or in revolt against the word of God and desire to dress this unbelief up as a polite "absence" from the "audience". You speak of abiding in Christ as impractical. You speak of my explanations as smoke and mirrors. One possibility is that I am just not a good teacher of the New Testament salvation. I certainly am not all that I should be in this regard. But there is another possibility also.Paul said that if the Gospel is veiled it is veiled to those who are in the process of perishing. So in my pointing out what the Gospel truly teaches and it seems obscure to you, it could be that you are in the process of perishing.I am telling you that Jesus can come into man and be our life and we can live through Him. You ridicule this as smoke and mirrors. Well, maybe you should consider the possibility that your mind is veiled as the apostle warned. You speak of "what the Master wants" very eloquently. But is "the Master" just a nice sounding expression for you? I see you fighting tooth and nail against the faith and displaying a lot of contempt for Christians in general.The good news is that whenever the heart shall turn to the Lord the veil is taken away. In my experience, just the heart turned away from Jesus as a living Person the Lord, causes a covering over the mind like a veil.When you turn to the Lord as a Person to contact by prayer the Person of Jesus Who lives, this veil is taken away and so very much of the New Testament becomes clearer. I can talk down to earth nitty gritty about the Christian life. However, I took time to lay some basic priniciples. You don't seem to get it.But for the record Paul said that EVERY THOUGHT must be captured to the obedience of Christ. Now every thought being captured would really be hard to codify in some laws. So you can see that this obedience to Jesus is far far deeper than outward actions. The rebellion in man's mind must be subdued and the thought life made captive to the indwelling Jesus Christ.This takes a life time and is very practical yet hard to codify in a list of Dos and Don't. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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So you can see that this obedience to Jesus is far far deeper than outward actions. The rebellion in man's mind must be subdued and the thought life made captive to the indwelling Jesus Christ.

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This takes a life time and is very practical yet hard to codify in a list of Dos and Don't.

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Unfortunately, the idea that people had time to "get it right" isn't really supported by the urgency that Jesus and Paul presented. Both made it clear that the kingdom of God was at hand.It is arrogant to think one has "time" to play the "need to know" game you're presenting. No one knows when they will die.Rather unfair for the Master to leave the slave with only a few requirements with the idea that he'll have to find or figure out the others as he needs them. Then the Master returns and the slave is held accountable for what he didn't find. As the verse concerning the Master said, both will be given stripes for actions that deserve it, one just won't be as harsh.If one wants to avoid stripes, one has to know what actions deserves stripes. They need to be made clear or be clearly available since the Master can come back at any time. Remember? No one knows when.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Using the maturity of Paul as an example, we can see that he said that he forgot the past experiences and pressed on each day to gain Christ. Paul, as a mature pattern of a healthy Christian, was not over introspective about how much time he had. He did excercise to forget the things of the past and keep on pursing the experiences of Christ which were before him. Both his spiritual failures and his spiritual successes were left behind. He simply kept pursing Christ upward and upward.And he says that "as many as are fullgrown, have this mind ...". He encourages all believers to adopt the same mature attitude. We Christians should stretch forth each new day to gain Christ. We should not linger in the past or be over introspective as to exactly where we are in the race.This is an attitude that a newly saved person can have or one who has been a Christian for a long time.A sense of urgency concerning the Lord's return should not lead to excessive introspection and bondage to anxiety.It is evident in Christ's parables that He conveyed the kingdom of God as a PROCESS. Any process takes SOME amount of time: The kingdom of God here is a matter of the development, growth, maturation, and ripening of life. Farmers have a sense of urgency about time. But they also accomodate for the normal process of timely growth to take place. Your complaints sound to me like your hunting for objections to the New Testament salvation. When a person is presented with a turkey dinner, I don't see the need to try to keep them from hunting only for bones to choke on.If you want to play the game "Well I have this problem. And I have that problem. And I have the other problem. You see?" Go ahead. The Master is Jesus. You are not the Master. Neither am I.You are adept at finding problems with His lordship. I with Abraham say by faith "Shall the Judge of all the earth not do justly ?" (Gen. 18:25) I have a soberness towards God. I am not anxious about your imagined "problems" with the way God administers in His kingdom. I have no thought that we will need you to referee how Christ will deal with His servants. I do not know when I will die. It could be tonight. I do know that my eternal salvation is secure. My security is Christ Himself.As to how I will fare before Jesus as His servant, that I do not know either. But with Paul I forget the things which are behind. The sins are covered in the precious blood of Jesus. The well pleasing deeds are the past not to linger in. I forget the things behind and pursue to gain Christ today.Each day is today. Yesterday is under the blood of Jesus. Tomorrow is not garuanteed to anyone. I only have today. I have today to pursue Christ, be found in Him, abide in Him, and seek His calling me upward and upward.It is not as if the kingdom of God was ONLY a matter of the Second Coming. Paul wrote a number of places that the normal church life is the practical kingdom of God to live in TODAY: Above Paul does not say the kingdom of God shall be or will be. He says that the kingdom of God IS, today in the age of grace, "righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."I need not be paralyzed with fear as to when Jesus will suddenly come. If my walk with God is normal I am ALREADY particupating in the kingdom of God by means of expressing righteousness, experiencing peace, and exulting in joy in the Holy Spirit.Please do not try to distort the scriptural exhortation to walk as if Jesus could come at any moment into being paralyzed with introspection. That is twisting the healthy teaching.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Your complaints sound to me like your hunting for objections to the New Testament salvation. When a person is presented with a turkey dinner, I don't see the need to try to keep them from hunting only for bones to choke on.

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You really are missing the point of this thread. From Message 6Christianity presents the idea that believers are not under "law" to be counted righteous, but one must follow "law" to show faith. Even Paul speaks of throwing off the old behavior and taking on the new. What are those new standards based on? I feel that Jesus and Paul based it on Jewish law (written and oral).As I said in Message 152: Like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves.We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families.Neither you nor Peg has shown anything more specific. If there is more to the behavioral part, then please share clearly.Edited by purpledawn, : Msg #

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I understand what you are doing. Its not that hard to understand what you are arguing. I'm just not playing along the way you want me to.Incidently, it is the growth in divine life in the believers which I said takes time. Your label "Laws Takes Time" is an example of your rather dishonest representation of what I expounded.There is an ignorance that arises from not knowing. But there is another kind of ignorance which arises from not wanting to know.If I detected that you followed me just a little bit in my explanation of abiding in Christ from John 15, I might humor you more and get down even to specifics instances in my own Christian walk.But I really don't think you're interested in specifics of the Christian experience as much as in vindicating some kind of humanist world view of your own which is essentially hostile to the New Testament.Shame on you, twisting what I wrote to be summarized as "Laws Take Time".Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

No Jesus did much more than that.Jesus installed Jesus as a living Person within His followers. And as I said before, God makes His life THEIR possession.And I would add that in doing that He did something NO teacher and NO religion on earth ever did.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I would like to repeat: A good question to follow on would be: Why are there so many exhortations and instructions in the New Testament then ?That is how I would wish PD would proceed. But there's no law that says PD has to follow this line of questioning.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Shame on you, twisting what I wrote to be summarized as "Laws Take Time".

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Shame on you for continually not addressing the point of this thread.I've made my intentions and my request very clear in Message 6 and throughout this thread.
I want to know what specific behaviors or actions are required by Christians to manifest their faith in God?
What will the Master judge specifically as worthy of stripes upon his return?The request is based on a statement by Peg in another thread. I'm not interested in all the nuances of Christianity. This is a very specific thread about a very specific aspect of Christianity.The parable you chose from Luke 12 supports that actions are important and the slave will be held accountable whether he knows the Master's will or not.

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But there is another kind of ignorance which arises from not wanting to know.

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I do want to know about the laws or behaviors for which Christians are held accountable.
I'm not asking how long it takes an individual to learn the rules.
I'm not asking for the process the religion uses to teach the rules.
I'm asking for the unvarnished rules and the authority that makes them the Master's will.Very simply, what will earn a slave stripes and what won't?
It should be as simple as that.Edited by purpledawn, : Msg #

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

The only simply answer for this question is this:Live as christ lived. Love as Christ loved. If we strive to do that, then God is pleased and we will get a favorable judgment.However, this requires accurate knowledge of what he taught, and what he believed and why he acted the way he did. The only place to get that knowledge is from the writings of the NT.