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Author Topic:   Christian Laws
Peg
Member (Idle past 3268 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 346 of 392 (528004)
10-03-2009 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by purpledawn
10-03-2009 3:44 PM


Re: Christian Laws
hang on a tick,
we are talking about the Mosiac Law, not the people of the time.

In line with your argument, the christians did not merely keep followiing the mosaic laws as you claim

In the mosaic law it was permissible to have numerous wives. All the patriarchs did so did they not?

Gen 16:3 "Then Sarai, Abrams wife, took Hagar, her Egyptian maidservant, at the end of ten years of Abrams dwelling in the land of Ca′naan, and gave her to A′bram her husband as his wife. 4 Accordingly he had relations with Hagar, and she became pregnant."

Samuel the prophets own father had two wives, Hannah and Peninnah. Hannah was barren for a long time and it was by Gods blessing that Hannah finally became pregnant with Samuel who went on to be used as a prophet.

Deut 21:15 15 “In case a man comes to have two wives"
This was accepted and even regulated under the mosaic law. The christians on the other hand introduced something new.

BTW, recently i went to the Pompei exhibibition here in melbourne, and slave girl/concubines were clearly and accepted practice by the romans.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by purpledawn, posted 10-03-2009 3:44 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by purpledawn, posted 10-04-2009 10:09 AM Peg has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 280 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 347 of 392 (528057)
10-04-2009 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by purpledawn
09-29-2009 5:27 PM


Re: Christian Laws

I responded in Message 224.

And I noticed that I responded to your Message 224 in the next Message 225.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by purpledawn, posted 09-29-2009 5:27 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1796 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 348 of 392 (528070)
10-04-2009 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by Peg
10-03-2009 9:35 PM


Re: Christian Laws
quote:
we are talking about the Mosiac Law, not the people of the time.

In line with your argument, the christians did not merely keep followiing the mosaic laws as you claim


I've been talking about reality, I'm not sure what you've been talking about.

As I showed in Message 6, the Mosaic Laws during the NT were only about 3.5% of the Jewish law. The Oral Torah was the larger portion that grew with the people after they returned from exile.

By committing the "Oral Law" to writing, the Rabbis sought to perpetuate traditions which had grown up over time with the consent of the community of Israel".

Just as our laws in the United States change with the culture, so did the Jewish Law.

The Mosaic Laws were written to govern a specific culture at a specific time. By referring back to the written laws you are stuck in the past.

Do you have support that the actual practices of the first century Jews included polygamy across the board?

Do you have support that the Greeks and Romans practiced polygamy in the first century?

Monogamy and polygyny in Greece, Rome, and world history

St. Augustine

Saint Augustine saw a conflict with Old Testament polygamy. He writes in The Good of Marriage (chapter 15) that, although it "was lawful among the ancient fathers: whether it be lawful now also, I would not hastily pronounce. For there is not now necessity of begetting children, as there then was, when, even when wives bear children, it was allowed, in order to a more numerous posterity, to marry other wives in addition, which now is certainly not lawful." He refrained from judging the patriarchs, but did not deduce from their practice the ongoing acceptability of polygamy. In chapter 7, he wrote, "Now indeed in our time, and in keeping with Roman custom, it is no longer allowed to take another wife, so as to have more than one wife living."

Please show support, don't just say it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Peg, posted 10-03-2009 9:35 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 3:19 AM purpledawn has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3268 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 349 of 392 (528172)
10-05-2009 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by purpledawn
10-04-2009 10:09 AM


Re: Christian Laws
purpledawn writes:

Please show support, don't just say it.

i've been showing you plenty of support, you just dont seem to think that the bible is authoritive enough to support its own claims

if you want to know what the bible says, you have to accept what it says. However you keep rejecting everything that has come out of the bible in favor of other reference material.

I would have thought the smart thing to do when studying a subject is to actually study the 'subject'

If your preference is to study the opinions of people who are related to the subject only through critisim, then you'll never know the subject.

The christians do have laws, if you dont know what they are then it may be time for you to start using the bible to locate them.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by purpledawn, posted 10-04-2009 10:09 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by purpledawn, posted 10-05-2009 3:58 AM Peg has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1796 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 350 of 392 (528179)
10-05-2009 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by Peg
10-05-2009 3:19 AM


Re: Christian Laws
quote:
if you want to know what the bible says, you have to accept what it says. However you keep rejecting everything that has come out of the bible in favor of other reference material.
Oddly enough, I probably accept what the Bible actual says more than you do.

Yes, it is wise to actually study the subject. You choose to study the subject through contrived interpretations and apologetics. I choose to study the subject through reality.

Writings can only give us a snapshot of a specific time. We can't always tell from the writing why a writer wrote what he wrote. Just like we can't always tell from a snapshot why the person was doing what they were doing.

When we read a writing, we read it from our own reality, not that of the author. The author writes for his audience and his reality, not ours. So to study the "subject" we have to try understand to the best of our ability the reality of the author and/or his audience.

Claiming that Christianity brought forth monogamy seems to be incorrect from the information I could find. Monogamy was already a part of the Graeco/Roman culture that Christianity became a part of.

quote:
If your preference is to study the opinions of people who are related to the subject only through critisim, then you'll never know the subject.
St. Augustine and a Christian Think Tank are criticism? I try to find support from Christian or neutral sources as much as possible.

Don't blame me because you're trying to make the Bible say something it doesn't.

quote:
i've been showing you plenty of support, you just dont seem to think that the bible is authoritive enough to support its own claims
You have not shown support that monogamy was introduced by Christians.

I've shown historical support that it wasn't.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 3:19 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 8:09 AM purpledawn has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3268 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 351 of 392 (528215)
10-05-2009 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by purpledawn
10-05-2009 3:58 AM


Re: Christian Laws
purpledawn writes:

Writings can only give us a snapshot of a specific time. We can't always tell from the writing why a writer wrote what he wrote. Just like we can't always tell from a snapshot why the person was doing what they were doing.

actually you can if the writer explains himself...a lot of the time the bible writers do explain themselves.

purpledawn writes:

You have not shown support that monogamy was introduced by Christians.

i never said it was introduced by the christians...i said they forbade the mosaic law practice of polygomy to show you that they did not continue with judaism as you claimed they did.

Remember the question is whether the christians have laws. You seem to think they remained a part of judaism and kept the mosaic law.

The bible writer Paul showed otherwise when he clearly made the law that christian husbands were to only be a husband of 'one wife'


This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by purpledawn, posted 10-05-2009 3:58 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by purpledawn, posted 10-05-2009 2:21 PM Peg has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1796 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 352 of 392 (528282)
10-05-2009 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by Peg
10-05-2009 8:09 AM


Re: Christian Laws
quote:
i never said it was introduced by the christians...i said they forbade the mosaic law practice of polygomy to show you that they did not continue with judaism as you claimed they did.
Yes they did. Message 104. I also showed you a Christian article that said various sects did not promote polygamy. Just because the Jewish law allowed the option, doesn't mean it was being utilized by all Jews or forced on Jews. Christians promoting monogamy doesn't show that the Jews following the Way didn't follow Jewish Law. The Way was still a sect of Judaism and therefore the members were still under Jewish Law. Only after Judaism cast out Christians were they no longer under Jewish Law.

Paul was speaking of church leaders, not the general congregation.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 8:09 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 10:07 PM purpledawn has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3268 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 353 of 392 (528356)
10-05-2009 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by purpledawn
10-05-2009 2:21 PM


Re: Christian Laws
purpledawn writes:

Paul was speaking of church leaders, not the general congregation.

those taking the lead were the ones who had to set the right example...the rest were expected to follow their example. It was one standard for all, becoming a christian meant imitating the example of Christ.

This is why Paul told christians to 'become imitators of me even as I am of the Christ' 1Cor 1:1

quote:
Colosians 2:13 "...He kindly forgave us all our trespasses 14 and blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees and which was in opposition to us; and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake. 15 Stripping the governments and the authorities bare, he exhibited them in open public as conquered, leading them in a triumphal procession by means of it.
16 Therefore let no man judge YOU in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new moon or of a sabbath; 17 for those things are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ

This is a clear statement of fact that the Mosaic law was removed and was no longer considered a legally binding requirment on christians.

If you really beleive the christians remained a part of judaism, you certainly have to be able to explain why they wrote such things against it.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by purpledawn, posted 10-05-2009 2:21 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by purpledawn, posted 10-06-2009 6:40 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1796 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 354 of 392 (528445)
10-06-2009 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 353 by Peg
10-05-2009 10:07 PM


Re: Christian Laws
quote:
those taking the lead were the ones who had to set the right example...the rest were expected to follow their example. It was one standard for all, becoming a christian meant imitating the example of Christ.

This is why Paul told christians to 'become imitators of me even as I am of the Christ' 1Cor 1:1


According to you, not the text. The text refers to leaders.

1 Timothy 3:2 NIV
Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

1 Timothy 3:12 NIV
A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.

Titus 1:6 NIV
An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.

quote:
This is a clear statement of fact that the Mosaic law was removed and was no longer considered a legally binding requirment on christians.

If you really beleive the christians remained a part of judaism, you certainly have to be able to explain why they wrote such things against it.


Greeks were never covered by the Jewish Law. Once Christianity was no longer a sect of Judaism, the members were no longer under Jewish Law. From the book "a History of Christiinaity" by Kenneth Scott Latourette, 1953.

To their neighbors these early followers of Jesus, for they did not yet bear the distinctive designation of Christian, must have appeared another sect of Judaism, predominantly Galilean in membership, distinguished from other Jews by their belief that Jesus was the Messiah and by their expectation of the early return of their Lord. Their leader, James, appears to have been especially conservative in his loyalty to Jewish customs. They continued to use the temple as a place of worship and observed the Jewish law, including its ceremonies, circumcision, and the dietary regulations. Even some of the pharisees joined them. So far as we know, their numbers were recruited entirely from Jews and proselytes to Judaism.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 10:07 PM Peg has not yet responded

  
Richh
Member (Idle past 2077 days)
Posts: 94
From: Long Island, New York
Joined: 07-21-2009


Message 355 of 392 (528781)
10-06-2009 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by purpledawn
09-25-2009 6:57 PM


Re: Standards of God
I did provide adequate support - from the New Testament - in quoting Rom. 1:29-32 in post 332. I don't know what more support you are looking for. You didn't answer my question post 337.

I fully believe God will judge those negative behaviors noted in that section, such as covetousness, malice, envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, arrogance, boastfulmness, disobediene to parents, etc. How He will judge has been mentioned in some posts by Jaywill.

I believe there are no other Christian laws than the Divine laws. These laws are derived from the character or nature of God. He tells His people, "You shall be holy because I am holy." He is saying in effect, "I want you the be like Me." It is the same with His attributes of righteousness, love, etc. He desires to have many sons conformed to the image of His firstborn Son (Rom 8:29). This image is surely an inward likeness, not in mere outward appearance.

Jesus said as much in the sermon on the mount when He said, in Matt 5:44-48.
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you
45 in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax-gatherers do the same?
47 And if you greet your brothers only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

He said, You should be like your Father, God. God wants to produce many sons be imparting Himself into man, sending 'the Spirit of His Son into our hearts crying Abba, Father' to God. Then we, 'by the Spirit' can 'put to death the practices of the body' (Rom. 8:13) and 'the requirement of the Law' can 'be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit' (Rom 8:4). Notice, God the Spirit is there operating in and with the child of God.

What has changed in the New Testament age is the means of fulfilling the 'righteous requirement' of the law, but not the requirement itself. The requirement of the law was summarized by Jesus - Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and wit hall your mind and with all your strength. - and Love your neighbor as yourself.

Endued with the Spirit of God, filled with the Holy Spirit, such a living is (often) the spontaneous manifestation of His presence.

Edited by Richh, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by purpledawn, posted 09-25-2009 6:57 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by purpledawn, posted 10-07-2009 9:28 AM Richh has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1796 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 356 of 392 (528860)
10-07-2009 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 337 by Richh
09-25-2009 8:14 PM


The reason you didn't get an answer is because you didn't use the reply button. No one knows who you were asking the question.

quote:
What do you accept as proof of divine origin?
Only the simple reading is necessary to understand God's message, the writing accounts for language change and can be understood by all generations and peoples, nothing gets lost in translation or left to interpretation, no hidden meanings, and the information is consistent.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Richh, posted 09-25-2009 8:14 PM Richh has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by jaywill, posted 10-07-2009 12:40 PM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1796 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 357 of 392 (528862)
10-07-2009 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by Richh
10-06-2009 11:26 PM


Re: Standards of God
quote:
I believe there are no other Christian laws than the Divine laws. These laws are derived from the character or nature of God. He tells His people, "You shall be holy because I am holy." He is saying in effect, "I want you the be like Me." It is the same with His attributes of righteousness, love, etc. He desires to have many sons conformed to the image of His firstborn Son (Rom 8:29). This image is surely an inward likeness, not in mere outward appearance.
Holy doesn't mean good or nice.

What makes the behaviors listed in the NT, laws! A law is legally binding. Where does God say these behaviors actually receive a death penalty?

quote:
What has changed in the New Testament age is the means of fulfilling the 'righteous requirement' of the law, but not the requirement itself. The requirement of the law was summarized by Jesus - Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and wit hall your mind and with all your strength. - and Love your neighbor as yourself.
Yes that is a summary, now give the detail. A summary isn't a law. We can't be held accountable to a summary. People can do bad things in the name of God.

What are the actual laws that are being summarized?


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Richh, posted 10-06-2009 11:26 PM Richh has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by jaywill, posted 10-07-2009 12:28 PM purpledawn has responded
 Message 364 by Richh, posted 10-10-2009 12:05 AM purpledawn has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 280 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 358 of 392 (528897)
10-07-2009 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by purpledawn
10-07-2009 9:28 AM


Re: Standards of God
We can't be held accountable to a summary

Who is the "we" in this sentence ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by purpledawn, posted 10-07-2009 9:28 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by purpledawn, posted 10-07-2009 6:39 PM jaywill has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 280 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 359 of 392 (528901)
10-07-2009 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by purpledawn
10-07-2009 9:19 AM


Only the simple reading is necessary to understand God's message, the writing accounts for language change and can be understood by all generations and peoples, nothing gets lost in translation or left to interpretation, no hidden meanings, and the information is consistent.

I don't think your reply to Rich answers the question that Rich asked.

You speak here in a general way about "God's message" and how easy it should be to understand it. This actually skirts around the question that he asked.

Try again.

What do you accept as proof of divine origin?

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by purpledawn, posted 10-07-2009 9:19 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by purpledawn, posted 10-07-2009 6:41 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1796 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 360 of 392 (528996)
10-07-2009 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by jaywill
10-07-2009 12:28 PM


Re: Standards of God
The thread is about Christian Laws, so the "we" refers to Christians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by jaywill, posted 10-07-2009 12:28 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by jaywill, posted 10-08-2009 1:09 PM purpledawn has responded

  
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