Christian Laws

the problem you have is that you do not accept the NT and its writers as authenticHow will you possibly learn about christian laws without the writings of the NT?

Christianity is a choice, you join or you dont. Its that simple.If you dont want to live by christian laws, you dont have to and all it means is that you are not a christian.This is unlike the mosiac law, or islamic law. If you are born into those nations (jews/muslim) you must abide by the laws by default. There is no choice.God is not as unreasonable as many believe him to be.

Hi Bailey Jesus taught this law orally, he did not personally write anything down but his apostles did and its from their writings that we can ascertain what the laws of christ are.They even wrote down a lot of what Jesus said personally, so those words of Jesus become a basis for the law of the christ.

quote:

---

If you dont want to live by christian laws, you dont have to and all it means is that you are not a christian.
This is unlike the mosiac law, or islamic law. If you are born into those nations (jews/muslim) you must abide by the laws by default. There is no choice.

---

You realize that's the same as saying, if you're born in the United States you must abide by the laws.As I've said several times. The Mosaic laws as presented in the OT were the laws of a functioning government. Notice many of the laws also pertained to those living within the land but not of Jewish descent. It was the foundation of a legal system.Christianity was not and still isn't a governing theocratic nation.I've agreed before that the Mosaic/Jewish Law doesn't apply to Christians and never did. Those called Christians were mainly Greeks, not Jews. The actual Jewish disciples of Jesus were still under the Mosaic/Jewish Laws. Paul's group were Greeks and never were subject to the Mosaic/Jewish Laws of the time.

quote:

---

God is not as unreasonable as many believe him to be.

---

I agree, God is not unreasonable. Mankind is another matter though.Peg, please remember what I've said in this post as we progress through this discussion.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Peg,
I know you don't like the idea of seeing the reality behind the Bible manuscripts, but when we are talking about authority, it is imperative that we know by whose authority these commands are given. Supposedly judgment day is a sentence of life or death. When a defendant stands before a judge with only two verdicts, life or death, is it fair for the defendant not to know what he is being judged against or to find out they were given the wrong set of rules? I don't think so. Questioning mankind's doctrine, dogma, and tradition is not wrong. Show me that God think's it is wrong for us to question the veracity of commands given to us.The Power Trail

quote:

---

Link 1 = God gives Jesus authority

---

Authority to do what? We are talking about laws.Matthew 3:16 doesn't speak of authority.In Matthew 28:18, the author has Jesus say he was given all authority, but we don't see a clear passing of the authority baton to make laws for mankind.1 Tim (100-150) is a very late writing and the author is unknown. The author speaks of Jesus as a mediator not a law giver. There is a difference.

quote:

---

Link 2 - Jesus gives his 12 apostles authority, at the last supper with them he said:

---

In Luke 22:28, Jesus said they would be given a kingdom, sit on thrones, and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Come on Peg, the plain text is very clear, this is after Jesus returns and it only concerns the 12 tribes of Israel.Matthew 28:19 - There were only 11 disciples at that time. As I pointed out in Message 13 he gave them a job to do, but he didn't give them authority to make laws. He was to teach what Jesus had commanded them, not make anything new. We don't necessarily know all that Jesus commanded them and they didn't teach Paul.You haven't shown me that God or Jesus clearly changed anything from the Jewish or Mosaic Laws.

quote:

---

He also told them that they would not be doing the work of preaching and teaching alone. He promised to give them holy spirit to guide and direct them.

---

That's not authority to make law or change law.

quote:

---

Abraham, Noah and Job all lived before the Mosaic laws were given to Moses, yet these men, and others, were righteous and approved by God? It would appear that the mosaic law was not only for the purpose of making someone righteous and approved. So it cant be assumed that we must follow those laws in order to be approved in the judgement day.

---

Exactly, so what is the purpose of the Christian Laws?
If they are not the standard by which we are judged on the final day, then what are they?
If they are only the rules necessary to be a part of a Christian congregation, where rules may vary, then they aren't actually legal laws.This brings us back to what I said in Message 6. To show faith in God, one must adopt HIS laws....or better put, live as he directs. So to show proper faith we still have to know the right laws and that they are God's. Without clear guidelines, we could be bringing meat to a vegetarian.You say that following the laws of the land aren't good enough, even though it was supposedly good enough for those before the Mosaic Laws.Do you see the inconsistency?Edited by purpledawn, : Msg #

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

So 'love your neigbour as yourself' IS a law of the christ. It is a far more reaching law then the mosaic law was.

---

It is a basis of the law and the prophets according to Jesus and a summary of the law and other commandments according to Paul.What makes it a legal law in and of itself? When does a summary of a law become the law?

quote:

---

This is why the Law of the Christ is far superior because as Jesus showed in his 'good Samaritan' parable, loving our neigbour means to show love to ALL nations...our love should not be restricted to a small group...it must be open to all without prejudice.

---

I'm not concerned whether the law of Christ is superior or not. That's irrelevant to the discussion. Besides, you're confusing a teaching of how to behave with a task that Jesus gave to disciples. They are also from two different authors.

quote:

---

You cant ignore the command to preach, teach and baptize people of ALL nations. Paul said at Acts 10:34, 35.
"God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him."

---

It isn't a law and is irrelevant. It was a task given to his disciples, not a law for all. Do you still not understand the difference?

quote:

---

No its not.
Gal 6:10 "Really, then, as long as we have time favorable for it, let us WORK WHAT IS GOOD TOWARD ALL, but especially toward those related to us in the faith."

---

Peg, Galatians 6:10 does nothing to change what the author of John 13:34 wrote. The love is for a closed group. Paul is not the author of John, in fact he was dead by the time it was written, and this still has nothing to do with laws.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Hi purpledawn, This Authority exists in the heavens, not here in a physical sense, but in a spiritural sense it exercises authority over its congregation.
The government is 'the kingdom of God'
This is the Kingdom or Government that he taught his followers to pray for. "Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will be Done"Compare these words of Jesus
Matt24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"With the prophecy of Daniel

quote:

---

Daniel 7:13, 14,
I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

​

Daniel 2.44
the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinit

---

This prophecy is applied to Jesus. Jesus has been given all authority for the purpose of establishing Gods rulership on this earth.Paul confirmed what jesus authority means when he wrote that God had "seated him [Christ] at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come" Ephesians 1:20-21Paul speaks of two 'systems'...this system and the one that is to come.
We are stiil existing in 'This' system of things...in the near future a new system will replace this system, it will a system ruled by Gods Kingdom as opposed to the system of government we have now.if you go back and look at Daniels prophecy about the Kingdom that God establishes that it will "Crush and put an end to all these kingdoms"To be a subject of that kingdom of God, we must live by the law of the christ and those laws are found in the writings of the NT. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

i am not really sure if I have an answer for youI can only ask you what you will say to God in the Judgement day??If he asks why you didnt accept the writings of the Apostles, how would you respond? Are you confident to say "i didnt believe they were authentic"Do you think that will be an acceptable reason to God?On the other hand, if the writings really are not authentic, there will be no judgement day and you will never have to explain to God why you didnt believe them and so there is no reason to be concerned about it.

The mosaic law served a purpose in its time, as Paul said "it made transgressions manifest"Christian laws also served a purpose. It was an acceptable form of worship. Jesus knew how to worship God because he existed with God in the heavens before he became a man. Jesus knew Gods laws perfectly and he gave us a living example of how to worship God acceptably.So for us to be acceptable to God, we should strive to live as christ lived. Paul took it a step further and said we should have the same mindset as Jesus
Romans 15:5 Now may the God who supplies endurance and comfort grant you to have among yourselves the same mental attitude that Christ Jesus had.In the judgement, Christ will judge us based on the standard of worship that he set for us. That standard of worship is found in the NT writings and nowhere else.

there is no inconsistency. Those who lived before the Mosaic law, lived by Patriarchal laws which were given by God himself.
One example is after the Flood Noah was given laws that allowed the adding of animal meat to mans diet. Life was declared sacred and therefore of the blood of the animal had to be drained. Murder was condemned and capital punishment for this crime was to be carried out by Gods command. (Genesis 9:3-6)Do you really believe that God would judge mankind without forewarning them of how they will be judged? He's never done that in the past so why would he do it now???

quote:

---

I can only ask you what you will say to God in the Judgement day??

​

If he asks why you didnt accept the writings of the Apostles, how would you respond? Are you confident to say "i didnt believe they were authentic"

​

Do you think that will be an acceptable reason to God?

​

On the other hand, if the writings really are not authentic, there will be no judgement day and you will never have to explain to God why you didnt believe them and so there is no reason to be concerned about it.

---

There's that all or nothing scenario again.I could stand before God and he asks, "Why in the world did you think those writings were authentic? Wasn't it obvious they were the work of men? I gave you a brain to think with, why didn't you use it?"Just because the authors are unknown doesn't mean the information within them is useless. They still contain some good principles to live by.Paul tells men to love their wives. Whenever I mess up or spend a little too much and my husband gives me that stern look, I smile at him and say, "Gotta love me!" and he knows I'm referring to Paul's statement.There are good lessons within the writings of the OT and the NT, but to put the fear of Hell into people when the authority is unknown is unethical.To make a statement that essentially says we aren't bound by the laws but we will be judged by the laws is also unethical, especially when one can't produce a consistent set of laws.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Romans 8:4 says "That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to [the] spirit." In the Greek there is no definite article before the word "spirit". This makes it difficult for translators to know whether Paul meant the Holy Spirit or the human spirit. Therefore the best understanding is that Paul meant the mingled spirit. That is the Holy Spirit in the human spirit, mingled together as "one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17) Paul's exhortation is for regenerated Christians, who have been joined to the Lord Jesus to be "one spirit" with Lord, should walk step by step according to this united and mingled spirit. The Spirit of Jesus Christ indwells the reborn Christian's spirit and s/he must develop the habit to walk according to this union of the Holy Spirit with his or her human spirit.In this walking, ie. living, is the fulfillment of the law of God spontaneously. Whatever the law of God requires can be spontaneously fulfilled not in mere human power but because of the grace and support supplied to the Christian by the indwelling Spirit of Christ moving in their spirit. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

quote:

---

the problem you have is that you do not accept the NT and its writers as authentic

---

Wrong. There are letters that Paul wrote and there are letters that were written after Paul's death and attributed to Paul. This was a common and acceptable practice in that day. The letters are authentic religious writings, but they aren't Paul and they are written after his death. The person was probably clergy, but what authority does the person have to make laws we are accountable to on judgment day?

quote:

---

How will you possibly learn about christian laws without the writings of the NT?

---

That's what you're supposed to be doing. Show me that there are Christian laws, not just principles and standards of living. I agree there are principles and standards of living.A law can be a principle or standard, but all principles and standards are not laws.Christians interchange these ideas so much that they have lost meaning. I want the weight put back in the word law and stop throwing it around lightly.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

quote:

---

Do you really believe that God would judge mankind without forewarning them of how they will be judged? He's never done that in the past so why would he do it now???

---

Exactly!I said God expects us to follow the laws of the land. Some of the principles in the Bible help us to do that and go the extra benevolent mile, some are geared only for the people of the time.You're the one who said there are Christian laws.There are rules of behavior (principles) for club members.Again what laws will God hold us accountable to on Judgment Day?

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

You have a good point. The Bible uses the phrase in two different ways which could make it confusing.On one hand the new covenant that the prophet Jeremiah speaks of will consist of the writing of God's laws into the hearts of the recipients of that covenant.On the other hand Paul writes that all mankind has "the work of the law" is written on all of our hearts: In the first passage Jeremiah and then Paul speak of the new covenant being God inscribing or writing His law "organically" into the human heart. This should really mean Christ comes into the human spirit as the divine life to mingle with the recipient. Christ's indwelling becomes the new law that the believer must learn to flow with that righteousness is spontaneously expressed.In the second passage Paul is saying something like the human conscience of all peoples testifies that there is something in their ethics and morality that indictes they know what is the right to do. The passage does not say that they have the ability to carry it out all the time. It does say that thier conscience informs them that they know what is the law of God intuitively. I would take that only in its moral aspect and not that they know what ritualistic ordinances Moses precsribed. ie. keeping the Sabbath Day.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.