Christian Laws

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if you dont believe that the books of the bible and those who wrote them did so under Gods direction, there is not much point discussing the laws of the NT.

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I have already agreed many times that the writings of the Bible are inspired by God, but inspiration is not necessarily under God's direction. There were many religious writings, but men who were not the authors decided which would be in the canon.Do you really understand the verse that you use to say that all the scripture is inspired by God? Read the plain text reading. It isn't saying that all scripture is law. I agree the writings are useful in training people to do right behavior. One also has to remember that cultures change over time and not all things considered right in one century will carry over to another. Current Christian writings are also useful for training in right behavior.To put this in perspective, the book of Revelation (90-95 CE) is dated before 2 Timothy (100-150 CE). Early Christian Writings

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but if you dont accept those writings, then the discussion seems pointless.

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No it isn't pointless. Those writings are not describing laws, IMO. Good advice at times, but not a legal law.Now if all you're saying is that Christian laws are the principles necessary to show the outside world one is a Christian, then I would agree some of the verses you provided are describing the behavior expected of Christian members at the time of the authors. But if you are saying that Christian Laws are the standards by which God will judge people on Judgment Day, then I still contend that the verses you have presented don't appear to carry the authority to make that claim, nor were they all commands to extend through time to the present.Are the Christian laws you speak of the same as God's laws and will be the standard of judgment on Judgment Day?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

which books of the NT do you accept as authentic? Matt 5:32"everyone divorcing his wife, except on account of fornication, makes her a subject for adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery"
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Ephesians 5:5"no fornicator or unclean person or greedy personwhich means being an idolaterhas any inheritance in the kingdom of the Christ and of God"
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Acts 15:20"write them to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood"
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1Thess4:11and to make it YOUR aim to live quietly and to mind YOUR own business and work with YOUR hands, just as we ordered YOU
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1Thess5:15 "See that no one renders injury for injury to anyone else, but always pursue what is good toward one another and to all others"
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1Thess5:19"Do not put out the fire of the spirit.
20Do not treat prophesyings with contempt.
21Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine.
22Abstain from every form of wickedness"
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Eph 5:18Also, do not be getting drunk with wine, in which there is debauchery
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Eph 6:5YOU slaves, be obedient to those who are [YOUR] masters in a fleshly sense
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Col 3:5Deaden, therefore, YOUR body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
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1Cor6:9" Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom"
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Col 3:8"But now really put them all away from YOU, wrath, anger, badness, abusive speech, and obscene talk out of YOUR mouth. 9Do not be lying to one another. Strip off the old personality with its practices"None of these laws are used lightly...they are the laws by which Christ will judge mankind during the judgement day.

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Is love so difficult that we cannot come to know how to apply it?

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Not the point. The saying is a summary of laws and commandments. A summary is not a law. It's like saying drive safely is a law without defining what constitutes safe driving.Agape in the NT and love today are not the same. Plus even though we use the one word "love" the writers of the NT used various greek words to bring across their meaning.Which meaning of love are we judged by? The past or the present? See the problem?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

It's not so much that as it is that Greek words were much more well defined towards specifics than English are... At least for this word, as you seem to be alluding to. For how many words English uses for synonyms, it is surprising that love has few, if any, true synonyms that capture the emotion.For instance, "I love cheeseburgers" versus "I love you." That's a significant difference, yet the same word is used, incorrectly in my opinion. Kinda minimizes love, aye?My point is that Agape is just one form of love and trying to translate it with the English word of "love" doesn't tell the whole story.I understand what you arguing about though. What exactly is the problem you are presenting?

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"The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money." --Margaret Thatcher--

Very true. Hmmmmmm... I don't know about that. If the only reason we physically die is because of Adam and Eve's colossally epic screw-up, how is that not paying for the sins of the father? Sounds like a raw deal to me.

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"The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money." --Margaret Thatcher--

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which books of the NT do you accept as authentic?

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They are all religious writings. The issue is authorship. I personally don't have the expertise to judge the authenticity of an ancient writing.The authors of of the four gospels are unknown. Authors aren't identified within the text.Mark (65-80ce)
Matthew (80-100ce)
Luke-Acts (80-130ce)
John (90-120ce) Authorship of Pauline EpistlesGenerally accepted by scholars to have been genuinely written by Paul.
Romans
Galatians
I and II Corinthians
Philippians
I Thessalonians
PhilemonDisputed Pauline Authorship
Colossians
Ephesians
II Thessalonians
The Pastoral Epistles (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus)
HebrewsNot the authors attributed by tradition.
James (70-100ce) - Author not considered the brother of Jesus
I Peter (80-110ce)
II Peter (100-160ce)
I, II, and III John (90-120ce)
Jude (90-120ce)Revelation (90-95ce) - Tradition says, John the son of Zebedee, but the author doesn't make the identification that specific. John is a common name. Nothing concrete.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Love your neighbor as yourself is a saying that was mentioned by Jesus and by Paul to be a summation of the laws and commandments. A summary is not a law. Just saying the word "love" does not give one the specifics necessary to know if one is doing what God expects or not.There are many people "spreading the love" but they are considered immoral. My point is that for a law that we are going to be held accountable to on judgment day, it is very vague and as you've shown, meanings are very different and cultures change over time. Torah on One Foot

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Thanks for the exchange.
Hope things are well ...

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Abba Father writes:

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child writes:

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Does it mean that the heathens and the Jews and all of us are brothers?
Does it mean that we must be kind to one another like brothers?

That's it, my child. That's the meaning of the whole Torah.
All the rest is only an explanation of that.
Go, go, my son. Go and study it ...

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Thank you.One LoveEdited by Bailey, : title edit

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Matt 5:32 "everyone divorcing his wife, except on account of fornication, makes her a subject for adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery"

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Rather harsh for one spreading love. Also a little onesided for a loving God, although from the wording this does allow the woman to divorce the man with no problem and marry another man with no problem. Interesting twist. Rather uneven for a law. Manmade laws tend to be uneven.The beginning of this chapter it says that Jesus started teaching. How is teaching making a law?

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Ephesians 5:5 "no fornicator or unclean person or greedy personwhich means being an idolaterhas any inheritance in the kingdom of the Christ and of God"

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You forgot the first part of that sentece. You do realize he is upholding the Mosaic Laws. Unclean means ceremonially unclean. Still goes back to the Mosaic/Jewish Laws that you said Christians weren't bound by.

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Acts 15:20 "write them to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood"

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I covered that in Message 15.
This was to the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
Abstain from things sacrificed to idols.
Abstain from blood.(Lev. 7:26)
Abstain from things strangled.Why are these part of Christian law today? Are we accountable before God concerning these? Unless it is Kosher, there is blood in the meats we consume. Besides, I thought the food laws didn't pertain to us. Inconsistency.Abstain from sexual immorality. Again, clarity. What specifies sexual immorality in Christian law? Then and today.

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None of these laws are used lightly...they are the laws by which Christ will judge mankind during the judgement day.

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None of these are laws. They are principles or standards to live by, but what makes them a law? They sound no different than the Jewish teachings. Paul was trying to get Greeks in line with the Jews, to behave the way the Jews were expected to behave.What do you think a law is?Edited by purpledawn, : Msg #

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Didn't Jesus specifically say that by loving God and neighbors as themselves that they sum up the law? Meaning, if you can accomplish these two tasks, nothing more would be asked of you, for by doing them you are in essence complete.You have to think of the difference between the NT and the OT. The NT is supposed to be a chronicling of the New Covenant. Part of the plan, according to the bible, is that the old covenant is no longer valid for those who choose the new covenant. The old Jeremiah verse comes to mind. Something like "Behold, I am doing a new thing in you..." It might have been in Isaiah. Can't remember for sure. I don't think it's very vague. I think the problem is that people complicate it. It's pretty simple: Love God and others before self, do unto others as you'd have them do unto you and you can't go wrong. The problem comes in during the application phase. As simplistic as it is, no one can perfect it. But, then, maybe that's the whole point.I don't know. I'm not a Christian, but these ideals seem to be something that everyone should seek after regardless of whether or not they believe in the gospels. Even the first one (loving God). Even if you don't believe in an all-knowing being, couldn't God represent the totality of all life? And in respecting the power of that mystery, you in essence love God anyway.I don't know... I'm brainstorming here.

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"The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money." --Margaret Thatcher--

Pious followers of Judaism sometimes irritate the hell out of me. I've met some devout Jews that look at you eating shellfish as if you just murdered a baby, but don't seem the least bit conflicted about engaging in extra-marital affairs. Where is their sense of priority?I'm pretty sure that if God exists, he'd be slightly more concerned with affairs of the heart over dietary laws.But anyway, Levitical law isn't part of being Christian because of the new covenant. The epistles go over that in great detail. Where is the confusion?

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"The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money." --Margaret Thatcher--

Have you read the opening post and understand what this thread is about?Peg says there are Christian laws. She is to list them and show why they are a law as opposed to principles or standards.Please read from the beginning if you haven't so that you don't pull the thread off track.The question in the post was why these three things would be part of Christian law today?
Abstain from things sacrificed to idols.
Abstain from blood.(Lev. 7:26)
Abstain from things strangled.Since Christian's don't abstain from blood it apparently isn't a law.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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I don't think it's very vague. I think the problem is that people complicate it. It's pretty simple: Love God and others before self, do unto others as you'd have them do unto you and you can't go wrong. The problem comes in during the application phase. As simplistic as it is, no one can perfect it. But, then, maybe that's the whole point.

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Law is complicated.Doing unto others as you would have them do unto you isn't necessarily the right thing. People carry a wide variety of personalities. It isn't a one size fits all. If I'm a quiet introvert, pulling me out for a night of drinks and bar hopping isn't the way to cheer me up even though it might be the way that person wants to be cheered up.Rabbi Hillel's version supposedly said: "What is hateful to you, do not do unto others."Basically we have to remember that our decisions and actions can affect others and not just humans, but wildlife and the planet. We have to be aware of the side effects and consequences of our actions.IOW, stop being selfish and just looking out for ourselves at the possible expense of others.

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I don't know. I'm not a Christian, but these ideals seem to be something that everyone should seek after regardless of whether or not they believe in the gospels. Even the first one (loving God). Even if you don't believe in an all-knowing being, couldn't God represent the totality of all life? And in respecting the power of that mystery, you in essence love God anyway.

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Yes the ideals are great, but is it a law? That is the issue at hand, not whether its a good idea to be nice or not.A law carries more weight than ideals and usually has penalties.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Thank you for the exchange Hyroglyph.
Hope things are well for you today ... Pious followers of various traditions often irritate the hell out of many - lol.Hopefully all the hell finally irritates its way out soon, cuz that is the Law. Or idolized the venemous murder of a Prophet ... oh wait, wrong tradition. My bad. It appears that 'no pig' laws, and the likes, had come to be installed within a form of ToRaH employed in Yuhdaism in an attempt to separate and distinguish Yisrael's economy. They are obviously smart enough to know a lil' pig meat, and the likes, won't kill ya. Superstitions, huh ... speaking of them, didn't the trinity god enact a christian law about a magic blood ritual?Silly superstitions - lol. Or is that a standard or a principle?? It appears as though RCC traditions, and their illegitimate step daughters, have no such ordinance for one in favor of the other either. Under what premise would you suppose a religious tradition be adulterous before superstitious, whether Yuhdaism or various RCC traditions? Not to say I necessarily disagree or otherwise ... more curious to know why you would suppose it.Chapter and verse, perhaps? Why, that's the nicest thing you've expressed all day. The Father loves you. That is the Law. That just seems like a silly thing for a christian to say, not that I'm attempting to offend you or assume that you are one or anything, its just that, the entire magic blood ritual hocus pocus associated to variant RCC traditions that 'christians' attempt to perceive is a carry over from a corrupted Levitical tradition.Regardless, even christians must know that not a jot or a tittles' goin' anywhere 'til the ToRaH and the Prophets, who belong to no tradition, are fulfilled. E'vry body knowzdat, but more to the point, admirers of HaMashiach have been taught to suppress ToRaH much in the same fashion that Yuhdaism had been taught to suppress GrAcE. Everything will come full circle though and that's gonna be intense no matter how ya look at it. Trust me.lol - don't trust me. Have faith and trust the Father. That, too, is the Law. lol - you should see it if you decide to peruse the thread. Another way this may become evident is by making any attempt to differentiate RCC traditions and the multiude of traditions that have come down to her through the halls of time. Purpledawn has been blessed in exposing various inadequacies imho.Be encouraged and take advantage, or 'another vantage' point, and educate. Why should you, perhaps, you say ...You guessed it -The Law.One Love

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The mosaic law served a purpose in its time, as Paul said "it made transgressions manifest"

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Yes it was presented as a legal system for a theocratic government. Every civilization needs laws and their civilization wasn't any different. Our civilization today is also no different. Laws are needed.Rules within a church are needed. Rules within a classroom are needed. Christians still need behavioral rules, but are they laws?By the time the Mosaic laws were written, the people already had laws. So the Mosaic laws did no more than any other laws did.Don't forget Paul was an evangelist. His writing style does not lend itself to one-liners.

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Christian laws also served a purpose. It was an acceptable form of worship. Jesus knew how to worship God because he existed with God in the heavens before he became a man. Jesus knew Gods laws perfectly and he gave us a living example of how to worship God acceptably.

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So for us to be acceptable to God, we should strive to live as christ lived.

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Christian laws served (past tense) a purpose. Is that a typo or are you saying we don't have the Christian laws either?We don't really know how Jesus lived or how he worshiped. That wasn't the point of the biographies. We just have bits and pieces.

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Paul took it a step further and said we should have the same mindset as Jesus
Romans 15:5 Now may the God who supplies endurance and comfort grant you to have among yourselves the same mental attitude that Christ Jesus had.

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My Romans 15:5 says: May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.Paul isn't saying we should have the same mindset in that verse. Besides, how would Paul know what Jesus' mindset was? He didn't meet the person of Jesus.

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In the judgement, Christ will judge us based on the standard of worship that he set for us. That standard of worship is found in the NT writings and nowhere else.

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What standard (not law) of worship did Jesus set for us? Anything concerning worship standards are by the later writers and some in Paul. Jesus' mission was to preach repentance and the coming of the kingdom. The Jews already had a form of worship. I don't see that Jesus changed that according to the gospel writers.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz