Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Trinity
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 61 of 128 (353551)
10-02-2006 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by SK
09-29-2006 12:02 PM


Re: The Trinity is based on scripture
ok show us other examples in the bible that show its a person
1 Cor 12:11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (both "he" and "will" indicate a person.).
Acts 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
Acts 11:12And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. (To bid is something a person does.)
Acts 13:2As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. (persons talk, right?)
Romans 15:30Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ’s sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me; (comparison between Jesus and the Spirit, exhorting love to both of them, as separate persons);
1 Cor 2:10: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. {Persons search, an it, a force, doesn't search. Also, why designate the Spirit if God is meant?)
Here's a site that lays it out:
quote:
it is necessary that we first show that the Bible teaches the personhood of the Holy Spirit. A sufficient condition for being a person is that he-she be a "self-conscious or rational being" (*Random House Dictionary*, 1075). Self-consciousness entails attributes such as knowing, thinking, and communicating. The following passages clearly show that the Holy Spirit is considered a person in Holy Scripture:
And when he comes [the Holy Spirit], he [the personal pronoun] will show the world how wrong it was about judgment [communication].... But when theh Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth, since heh will not be speaking as from himself but will say only what he has learned [knowing and thinking]; and he will tell you of the things to come [communicating]." (John 16:8,13)
One day while they were offering worship to the Lord and keeping a fast, the Holy Spirit said [communicating], "I [first personal pronoun] want Barnabas and Saul set apart for the work which I have calle them." (Acts 13:2)
In both these passages the Holy Spirit is described as acting in very way a self-conscious person acts: He communicates, thinks, knows, and is described in personal pronouns (i.e., "he" and "I").
Furthermore, there are several other passages that portray the Holy Spirit as exhibiting attributes that are exclusive of personhood. For example, the Holy Spirit is described as consoling (Acts 9:31), helping us in our weakness (Rom 8:26), forbidding (Acts 16:6,7), and able to be lied to (Acts 5:3). Moreover, the Holy Spirit can be grieved (Eph. 4:30) and insulted (Heb. 10:29), and is said to possess a will (I Cor. 12:11).
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Trinity/beckwith.html
i got another question ....in trinity..., 3 beings ...do they each have equal power?
Yes, they are identical in all the attributes of God, but the Son had less authority while on earth, subordinated Himself to the Father, who, however, has given Him all authority in heaven and earth.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by SK, posted 09-29-2006 12:02 PM SK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-02-2006 2:51 AM Faith has not replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3426 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 62 of 128 (353555)
10-02-2006 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
09-28-2006 7:47 PM


Re: The Trinity is based on scripture
Only because you want it to. In fact it describes a person as a person and the church has known that from the beginning.
From the beginning, really? Which church are you referring to? What beginning are you referring to? I would love to read a history of a unified church "from the beginning," because I just can't seem to find one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 09-28-2006 7:47 PM Faith has not replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3426 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 63 of 128 (353558)
10-02-2006 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Archer Opteryx
09-29-2006 12:48 PM


Re: What Did Jesus Think?
I'd be interested in knowing how many people believe Yeshua, Galilean carpenter's son and longtime synagogue participant, walked around thinking of himself as the Second Person of the Trinity.
Me too. Especialy since there seems to be no talk from Jesus's own mouth about how He is, unambiguously, God, The Father, walking on Earth as Man.
So, assuming the Trinity doctrine is correct, in Matthew 27:46 When Christ exclaims "My God, Why hast thou forssken me?" or "My God, was this why I was kept/spared" (depending on translation) He knew, either way, the answer and was probably (unless He is not God at all)being melodramatic or purposefully confusing His disciples. I'm not quite sure how God could save Jesus if Jesus was, indeed God. Or how people could not be saved by believing in God, but not Jesus, since they are one and the same.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-29-2006 12:48 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 64 of 128 (353561)
10-02-2006 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
10-02-2006 1:50 AM


Re: The Trinity is based on scripture
The doctrine of the Trinity is indeed based on Scripture. It represents a later generation's interpretation of canonical texts.
In that respect the Trinity doctrine is like the Anselmic doctrine of satisfaction, the doctrine of transubstantiation in Roman Catholicism, the 'universal priesthood' doctrine of Lutheranism, the 'seventh day' doctrine in Seventh-Day Adventism, the 'full gospel' doctrine in Pentecostalism, and many other doctrines. All are subsequent developments based on Scripture. All represent interpretations.
Those who want to find a Trinity in a Bible that never mentions one make heavy weather of passages where the Holy Spirit is portrayed in anthropomorphic terms. It is a far journey from an anthropomorphic image to a doctrine of the Trinity, of course. And the doctrine of the Trinity is hardly an inevitable conclusion from these images.
The dominant image of the Holy Spirit in the Bible is not as a person but as a natural element: wind. That's what the words translated as 'spirit' from Hebrew (ruach, etc.) and Greek (pneuma) mean. For the original writers and readers of the Scriptures no difference existed. Translators into English have to be more metaphysical about it. They choose the word 'spirit' or 'wind' when rendering these words for 'wind' based on context and interpretation.
This means that in the Scriptures the idea of air, breath, and wind is invoked whenever the idea of spirit is invoked. It cannot be otherwise. The image is guaranteed by the language.
By comparison anthropomorphic images of the Holy Spirit occur far less often. This raises the question: on what basis are the anthropomorphic images to be taken literally? If we are not to believe that the Holy Spirit is literally a 'wind,' why is it necessary to believe the Holy Spirit is literally a 'person'? There is just as much basis for one as the other.
Historically, the doctrine of the Trinity emerged in reaction to various beliefs--subsequently defined as heresies--about the divinity and humanity of Christ. In rejecting these ideas church leaders found themselves asserting a set of premises that meant the universe was governed by a troika of divine beings: Yahweh, Jesus, and the Spirit.
Believing in a troika of divine beings is as valid as any other religous belief. The catch for Christians: they had inherited the Hebrew Bible with that Shema to deal with:
'Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is one.'
Christians, like Jews, were supposed to be monotheists.
Church leaders resolved the problem by refusing to resolve it. They simply asserted the flat contradiction. 'Three divine beings exist that we recognize as God,' they said, 'but only one God exists.'
The relationship was a mystery for subsequent generations to ponder.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 10-02-2006 1:50 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by AdminPD, posted 10-02-2006 9:50 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied
 Message 73 by ramoss, posted 10-14-2006 12:56 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3426 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 65 of 128 (353563)
10-02-2006 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
09-28-2006 8:17 PM


Re: The Trinity is based on scripture
Scripture says he laid down his life -- that means died -- of his own free will.
I thought suicide was a sin.
I'm 100% sure that I would give my life so that all of humankind would live in peace. Does that make make me God?
God forsook him and he died. He actually died.
Yes, God forsook Him. But, He was God? I guess if you forsake yourself then you might kill yourself, but, again, isn't suicide a sin?
He came back because all it took for him to pay for our sins was dying itself in our place.
So, good on Jesus. He already paid for my sins. Or, wait, do I have to recognize the blood sacrifice just like I would have had to witness and/or instigate an animal/human sacrifice in order to repent or please the god(s)? I'm not really sure here. I figure the blood of God is enough seeing as how He so loves me and all.
Because he himself was personally sinless he couldn't die for himself but only for us.
Why would He die for Himself?
He died bearing OUR sins. He paid for them by dying in our place. He paid for our sins and then God returned him to life, which he could do because he was sinless.
But He didn't die in our place. If Jesus is eternal and He preached to the dead (even those who sinned magnificently -including all the wickedest of the wicked before Noah - before Jesus walked the Earth), why didn't/doesn't Jesus (as God) preach to all departed souls until the end of time? Why the need to walk the Earth as Man?
Actually there are three separate statements about Who brought Him back to life, one says He Himself did, one says God the Father did, one says the HOly Spirit did -- all of them being God.
I don't necessarily doubt you and I'm sure I do not know scripture as well as you do, but I would like to know the passages that support this statement and/or why they are interpreted as such.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 09-28-2006 8:17 PM Faith has not replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 66 of 128 (353581)
10-02-2006 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Archer Opteryx
10-02-2006 2:51 AM


Warning - Topic
Just a strong general reminder to participants that this thread is about understanding what the Trinity is. The originator had some very specific questions in Message 1 in trying to understand the doctrine of the Trinity.
1) Does each of these three persons have a seperate free will and consciousness? Do they each have a seperate soul?
2) If the three each have a seperate consciosness, then is there a fourth wich is the collective consciosuness of the three? Is there a collective person that is the three persons combined?
3) Does God exist in the trinity simply because that is the way it is or did God chose to be a trinity?
4) Was God always a trinity or did God become a Trinity at one point?
I assume that if 3 is choice and 4 is became that means God could make decisions across time.
5) Does each member of the trinity have a specific purpose that was there since eternity past?
Such as
1. The Father creates.
2. The Son redeems.
3. The holy spirit sanctifies.
This thread is not about whether the Trinity is a viable doctrine or not. If you don't believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, you should not be participating in this discussion.
Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour timeout.
Thank you Purple
Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-02-2006 2:51 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Terral
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 128 (356170)
10-12-2006 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Christian7
05-18-2006 4:59 PM


The Three Witnesses Of The Almighty AND His Word
Hi Guido Arbia:
quote:
Guido >> Up until now I've always had a problem with the concept of the trinity. I am still not sure that I fully comprehend it. My personal perspective on the trinity is that there are three persons equal in authority and power made of the same substance and forming one God head: The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit.
Please prepare yourself to hear a view never before presented on this Board, because the common ”trinity’ dogma of men is certainly a MYTH. While the typical denominational trinity doctrine possesses the right ”pattern,’ the wrong principals are plugged into the equation. The three witnesses of “The Almighty” appear with Him in Revelation 1:8 as “God To Come” (spirit), “God Who Is” (blood) and “God Who Was” (water) and those three are also “into the one” (1John 5:8). Your principals above (F+S+HS) are the three witnesses of “The Logos” (The Word) who God sent into the world to be “made flesh” (John 1:14) and dwell among us. Let us examine a few verses of Scripture in order to gather a more stable posture, before visualizing these things in diagrams:
quote:
No one has seen God at any time; the Only Begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” John 1:18.
No one has seen the “Invisible God” (Col. 1:15), but many did see “The Logos” walking the earth as the “Son of God.”
quote:
"I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God." John 1:34.
Jesus Christ testifies about “My Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 10:32+33, etc.), as John the Baptist also says, “I have seen the Spirit descending out of heaven . . .”. (John 1:32). Christ testifies to be “the bread which comes down out of heaven . . .”. John 6:50. However, what does Scripture say that forbids Him from being “God?”
quote:
"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, HEAVEN and the highest heaven CANNOT contain You, how much less this house which I have built!” 1Kings 8:27.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit can ”all’ be contained by heaven, because They represent the three witnesses of “The Logos” (Word = John 1:1-3). However, what does Scripture command concerning the worship of anything in heaven?
quote:
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in HEAVEN above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.” Exodus 20:4.
By all the definitions of these terms, anyone worshipping the Father, Son OR Holy Spirit as ”Deity’ is guilty of IDOLATRY. The diagram showing us the difference looks something like this:
Figure 1 shows the relationship of the “one God” to the “one Mediator” Christ Jesus (F+S+HS) standing between God (spirit) and men (water). Note that the triune Creation shows God in the “Holy of Holies” (golden semicircle), Christ Jesus between the veils in the “Holy Place” (where the two realms overlap = Soul of creation); while men exist in the “Court” (water) section outside the First Veil. Your three witnesses of Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) are standing between God and men in “The Heaven” of Genesis 1:1, while men are upon the “Earth.” Figure 2 shows how these nine witnesses exist within the three original witnesses to create our “twelve” witnesses who are all “into the one.” Therefore, God is INFINITE and cannot be contained by either the Heaven between the Heavens and Earth of “This Creation,” OR the Highest Heaven represented by the “Son” enlarging between His Father and the Holy Spirit. We must recognize “Christ Jesus” as the “one Mediator” between God and men and NOT be tempted to move Him into the “one God” position. Let us bear these things in mind in addressing your questions:
quote:
Guido >> My questions are this: 1) Does each of these three persons have a separate free will and consciousness? Do they each have a separate soul?
The ”will’ aspect is restricted to every ”spirit’ witness in any triune mystery set. In reading the Four Gospels, we should acknowledge ”the Father’ as the ”spirit’ of Christ Jesus (The Logos between the veils above) and The Son as the ”soul’ of Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit as the ”body’ of Christ Jesus. Does the life originate in the spirit or the soul? Christ tells you here, saying,
quote:
"For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.” John 5:26+27.
The life of your own soul was passed from your spirit along with the authority to ”judge’ between the things of the spirit and the things of the flesh. The ”will’ of the Son is NOT His own, because even that is passed from the Father.
quote:
"I can do NOTHING on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do NOT seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.” John 5:30.
“So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.” John 8:28.
The Father and Holy have no soul at all, because THAT is what “The Son” represents to them BOTH. “Heaven” from the above diagram represents the realm of “The Logos,” before God made the Original Sacrifice. Try to imagine God’s Word on the altar Perfect, Mature and Whole, until God divided Him straight down the middle into the two parts of Father (spirit) and Holy Spirit (water). God held Each in His hands as two gigantic beach balls so that “darkness was upon the face of the deep” (Gen. 1:2). Then God brought the two back together to touch and overlap, until His Son became the “Only Begotten.” Christ Jesus is the “Only Begotten Son of God” IN Whom this entire Creation is held together (Col. 1:16+17). Jesus Christ on the earth is the ”incarnation’ of Christ Jesus, as God’s walking, talking Living Tabernacle. THAT is what makes Jesus Christ the “Son of Man,” i.e. the microcosm of “Christ Jesus” (F+S+HS). Paul’s teaching that we know Him this way “No Longer” (2Cor. 5:16+17) means we are to look up and see “Christ Jesus” (F+S+HS) as the ”one Mediator’ and NOT one “found in appearance AS A MAN” (Phil. 2:8).
quote:
Guido >> 2) If the three each have a separate consciousness, then is there a fourth which is the collective consciousness of the three? Is there a collective person that is the three persons combined?
No to your first question and yes to the second. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit all have individual consciousness bound up in their respective spirit, blood and water triune mystery witness relationship. Try to realize that everything once existed as a singularity expression (God, Word, Creation), but they now exist in these broken three witness sets. The Satanic Rebellion caused Adam (This Creation) to become broken into the heavens, heaven and earth and God could not send The Logos to redeem anything; because He continued to exist as “One.” Therefore, God’s Original sacrifice became the necessary component to allow the remainder of the equation to become complete. The Father has authority (Acts 1:6+7) over things unknown to the Son (Matt. 24:36) and we see the Holy Spirit speaking and separating (Acts 13:2) in His own ministry among men. The collective “Person” in the three combined witnesses of “The Logos” is none other than “Christ Jesus” from the Pauline Epistles! Read Eph. 2:4-7 again very slowly to realize you have been seated ”with’ Christ “IN” Christ Jesus.
quote:
Guido >> 3) Does God exist in the trinity simply because that is the way it is or did God chose to be a trinity?
God exists in the three witnesses of Revelation 1:8, because He pushed the ”Second Veil’ to seat Himself “IN” the very center of “Christ Jesus” His Only Begotten Son. Therefore, “God Who Is” is seated in the ”center of the throne’ like the Lamb of Revelation 7:17, with His Two Witnesses on either side giving constant testimony. Imagine that Second Veil is a conveyer belt moving from “God To Come” (Future) in the direction of “God Who Was” (past). “God Who Is” sits in the “here and now,” because He has entered the realm of Time and Space; even if He is restricted to an existence within the Veil tightly fitted round His Throne. When God turns around to walk back into His Infinite Realm, then His Two witnesses of spirit and water will simply disappear; as God becomes “all in all” (1Cor. 15:28). The three witnesses of “the Logos” (F+S+HS) are the “IMAGE of the Invisible God” (Col. 1:15), as both the Father and Holy Spirit will be summed back up into “the Son” (1Cor. 15:27) to once again be “The Logos.”
quote:
Guido >. 4) Was God always a trinity or did God become a Trinity at one point?
God became a trinity of witnesses in the moment He entered His Son within the Realm of Time and Space. Since God is truly INFINITE, this is like God sticking His pinky finger against the “Second Veil” and simply making space within the soul of His Son for His three witnesses.
Most everyone here has an existence in each of these three realms, which finds us as “gods” (Fig. 1) standing in Judgment for crimes connected to the Satanic Rebellion; with bodies pressed tightly against that “Second Veil.” Follow that line down and note “God’s Throne” pushing into “God’s Word Being Restored” (top of page). An infinite number of God’s children do not possess the power to move that Second Veil a single inch, but God can do whatever God wants. : 0 ) The top half of that horizontal arrow is moving to the right, while the bottom is moving like a conveyer belt to the left and back down the “Second Veil” line. “God To Come” serves “God Who Is” from the top half and “God Who Was” serves Him from the bottom half, so long as He continues pushing the veil into His Son. The “Lamb” of Figure 3 is the ”incarnation’ of ”Christ Jesus’ (Fig. 2) within “Heaven” of “This Creation” and “Adam Being Restored.” John sees these three thrones as “three are into the one” in Revelation, but in truth they are three thrones ”becoming’ one.
quote:
Guido >> I assume that if 3 is choice and 4 is became that means God could make decisions across time.
Our Infinite “God” beyond the Realms of Fig. 2 and Fig. 3 saw all these things pass before Him in the blink of an eye. You are I are living ”within’ the envelope of time and space existing before His “stare” inside that flash of an instant. In other words, if you could see beyond this universe and beyond the Word Realm being restored, from the very beginning of time to the very end, you would see Our Infinite God with the same expression within the same two ticks of His Infinite Clock. God simply has no ”time’ to change His mind within His Infinite Realm. It is only through His Infinite Power and Divine Nature that He is able to interact with us within His Son and His Three Witnesses.
quote:
Guido >> 5) Does each member of the trinity have a specific purpose that was there since eternity past? Such as 1. The Father creates. 2. The Son redeems. 3. The holy spirit sanctifies.
Remember you are asking about the three witnesses of “The Logos” (Word) and not about God. This means that “The Son” (blood) looks up to see “My Father who is in heaven” and down at “My Holy Spirit who is in heaven,” as the “soul” of Christ Jesus. However, ”Christ Jesus’ looks up and sees “God” in His Infinite Realm! Therefore, the Son has a “Father” AND The Son of God has His “God AND Father” beyond the veil of time and space. That means there are ”two heavens,’ as the “Heaven of Fig. 3 AND the “Highest Heaven” of Figure 2. The Son has “My Father” in Figure 2 AND My “God and Father” of Figure 1. These things become clearer in time, as you come to recognize the ”three witnesses’ and their ”relationships’ to one another being described in God’s Living Word.
The spirit witness (Father in this case) always precedes the water and blood witnesses and possesses His own “glory” to be passed to each [there is one exception to this rule almost impossible to detect : 0 )]. Everything you see in my diagrams with ”golden/yellow’ coloring has a specific ”glory’ passed from a ”spirit’ witness someplace; and blue for the water (servant) witnesses and red for the blood (only begotten) witnesses. God redeems by sending His Son, as water witnesses (men) are called to join Him in the ”summing up’ (Eph. 1:9+10) and subjection (1Cor. 15:27) ”processes’ connected to Paul’s “the mystery” (Eph. 3:3). The Holy Spirit does indeed sanctify (separate) men from the world like a ”priest,’ but in service to the Son and by the authority of the Father. Ask if your own spirit, soul and body have specific purposes, OR are the three rolled up into one? GL.
In Christ Jesus,
Terral

"For the word of God is Living AND Active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." Hebrews 4:12.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Christian7, posted 05-18-2006 4:59 PM Christian7 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 10-13-2006 9:40 AM Terral has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 68 of 128 (356274)
10-13-2006 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Terral
10-12-2006 4:34 PM


Re: The Three Witnesses Of The Almighty AND His Word
Just out of curiousity, Terral...where did you get your teachings?
We can agree that there are many teachings and many views of scripture put forth by many churches, many denominations, and many ideologies.
All can defend their particular views using scriptures to back them up--yet all are in contradiction to each other.
Not to say whether your view is right or wrong at this point..(for who am I to discern or judge?) but I am curious what church background you come from and specifically what denomination?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Terral, posted 10-12-2006 4:34 PM Terral has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Terral, posted 10-13-2006 10:11 AM Phat has not replied

  
Terral
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 128 (356282)
10-13-2006 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Phat
10-13-2006 9:40 AM


Let's Reserve The Threads For 'On Topic' Debate
Hi Phat:
quote:
Phat >> Just out of curiousity, Terral...where did you get your teachings?
Please forgive, but there is no way I can answer your personal questions and stay focused upon the topic of this thread at the same time. If you see any seeming contradictions in any of my posts, please “quote that >>” and present your opposing views using Scripture. 2Timothy 2:15. I will send you a private message and include a brief summary of the personal information you seek.
God bless you,
In Christ,
Terral
Edited by Terral, : Edit Phat's name from Prat : 0 )

"For the word of God is Living AND Active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." Hebrews 4:12.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 10-13-2006 9:40 AM Phat has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 70 of 128 (356450)
10-14-2006 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by ringo
09-28-2006 3:30 PM


Angels Predate Man
Doesn't Job 38 say that the sons of God (angels in this instance) rejoiced at God's laying the foundation of the earth? That would imply that they were in existence when God was making the earth.
"Where were you [the man Job] when I laid the foundation of the earth? .... Onto what were its bases sunk, Or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (See Job 38:4-7)
The 24 elders in Revelation chapter 4 and 5 and elsewhere in Revelation, I believe are the elders of the creation. Their initial appearance in chapter 4 is definitely in connection to God being the Creator of all things. "Elders" indicates that they have been around the longest. In a nutshell the 24 elders are the elders of God's creation. Taken along with Job 38 above this argues for them being created before man.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 09-28-2006 3:30 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 10-14-2006 10:59 AM jaywill has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 71 of 128 (356479)
10-14-2006 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by jaywill
10-14-2006 7:03 AM


Re: Angels Predate Man
jaywill writes:
Doesn't Job 38 say that the sons of God (angels in this instance) rejoiced at God's laying the foundation of the earth?
  1. You are assuming that "sons of God" refers to angels. That's a whole other topic.
  2. Job 38 is full of figurative language. Do you want to take the earth's "corner stone" literally too?
  3. Whether or not angels predate man is a minor nitpick. It has little or no bearing on the topic.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by jaywill, posted 10-14-2006 7:03 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by jaywill, posted 10-14-2006 5:32 PM ringo has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 72 of 128 (356488)
10-14-2006 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
05-19-2006 7:59 PM


No Cookie for You
Phat writes:
If I were to leave a chocolate chip cookie on the table about a hour before dinner time and my son was to walk by and see it, I know that he would pick up the cookie and eat it. I did not force him to make that decision.
In fact, I don't even have to be in the room at all. I think I know my son well enough, though, to tell you that if I come back into the kitchen the cookie will be gone. His act was made completely free of my influence, but I knew what his actions would be.
Pardon me if this has been explored already. I am just beginning to read this thread and see that no one has linked back to your message #7.
Not to put too fine a point on it but your example points up the weakness in the whole argument as to whether God gives us freewill.
In your example, you claim to have had no influence over your son's decision. Yet you presented the cookie by way of temptation, asserting that you knew he would succumb.
Your protestations notwithstanding: You cannot discount the effect of your influence nor disavow your role in the matter; nor can you disclaim responsibility for the outcome. Your argument would not stand up in court. According to Christian doctrine, life and death may be determined based on decisions such as "to eat or not to eat" the 'cookie.' Imagine the news coverage were life and death actually at stake in your example: FATHER OF "COOKIE BOY" SAYS "HE WANTED IT." (Almost a direct quote from one of those boy-molesting priests.)
In like manner and more to the point, God creates us with a mindles sex drive and then (as some would have it) forbids us to act on it in the absence of a legally binding, lifelong civil contract signed by a representative of the state.
Yeah. That's God.
Seriously: the Bible contains at least two distinct concepts of God. As I understand it, there is only the One reality but a variety of manifestations, including divine Kingship wherein the king is also addressed as 'God.'
Believe it or Not

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 05-19-2006 7:59 PM Phat has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 613 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 73 of 128 (356491)
10-14-2006 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Archer Opteryx
10-02-2006 2:51 AM


Re: The Trinity is based on scripture
Believing in a troika of divine beings is as valid as any other religous belief. The catch for Christians: they had inherited the Hebrew Bible with that Shema to deal with:
'Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is one.'
Christians, like Jews, were supposed to be monotheists.
Church leaders resolved the problem by refusing to resolve it. They simply asserted the flat contradiction. 'Three divine beings exist that we recognize as God,' they said, 'but only one God exists.'
The relationship was a mystery for subsequent generations to ponder.
That sounds about right. And , in my opinion , calling something a 'mystery' is admiting it doesn't make any sense what so ever, but we will tell people that anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-02-2006 2:51 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by jaywill, posted 10-14-2006 5:43 PM ramoss has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 74 of 128 (356512)
10-14-2006 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Argusx43
05-21-2006 7:41 AM


Re: Trinity
Argusx43 writes:
There can only be One Saviour.
Not that I think it confirms or denies the doctrine of Trinity, but - Where does one get the idea there can only be one saviour? The following scripture seems to deny that opinion.
quote:
"... in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest [them] from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies." Nehemiah 9:27
???

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Argusx43, posted 05-21-2006 7:41 AM Argusx43 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by jaywill, posted 10-14-2006 5:35 PM doctrbill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 75 of 128 (356517)
10-14-2006 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
10-14-2006 10:59 AM


Re: Angels Predate Man
==================================
1.) You are assuming that "sons of God" refers to angels. That's a whole other topic.
=================================
That is exactly right that I am assuming "sons of God" in Job refers to angels. And with good reason. I am assuming therefore that the assumption is valid.
=================================
2.) Job 38 is full of figurative language. Do you want to take the earth's "corner stone" literally too?
=================================
Again I agree that there is a lot of figurative language in the book of Job. That fact does not lead me to believe that "sons of God" does not refer to angelic beings in Job.
====================================
3.) Whether or not angels predate man is a minor nitpick. It has little or no bearing on the topic.
===================================
When you want to write something perhaps not valid that is a minor point, give us a heads up so we won't bother nit picking your wrong statements.
We'll just worry about debunking your topic related blunders.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 10-14-2006 10:59 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 10-14-2006 6:48 PM jaywill has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024