Biblical Translation—Eden, 3

Technically, the sin of blasphemy does not occur even when there is a witness. It becomes a mandated crime only when done in public, and when the person is of sound mind.This does not mean any normal person would do so in his private thoughts - that is not a normal trait even for a dis-believer, and it is not relevent here. Equally, to maintain the sanctitity of the law, one is innocent until proven guilty. With Capital punishment, there must not be even a miniscule degree of doubt.All the above does not impact that one's bad thought is not a crime or a sin. The greatest threat to the premise of law is if it is incorrect or exaggerated [also incorrect]. The OT law stands here, and it is evidenced by the judiciary system. You cannot convict one for a bad thought, nor can Heaven - even if Heaven is aware of that bad thought in one's mind. But this status quo is altered when there is an obsession and a planning to do so - that is a sin - as well as a crime. Its the difference between a stalker and one passing you by.

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Whatever the literary text describes as true and valid and can be corroborated by other means can and should be accepted as being a historical event.

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Absolutely this is correct, and is alligned with the premise, a factual occurence transcends [overides] a belief. Also, a belief is nullified if it can be proven otherwise by a factual evidence. The usual error made by many religionists is that they forget the laws of nature and all factual occurences are controlled by the same source as the spiritual forces of beliefs, and that these are intergrated. Here, a deeper understanding of monotheism the oneness of the creator is required.

Has this fulcrum question been discussed:What is the meaning of angels guarding the gates [of eden] with firey swords turning every which way? Guarding from whom, and does this mean one can attempt to go there? Also, is this place on the earth, and if not, where then?One does not have to be a theist to answer that question, as it is also a deciphering of its grammar and comprehension.

Ths is getting closer to what I was asking about the nature of God. It will become more crucial as we move through the discussion, thanks
The “supernatural event” described in a book does not invalidate the entire book, only that particular “supernatural event” is perceived as questionable. That is what I said above. Here it is again: This is also a valid statement in the context of our discussion, it however, is not a valid point in realation to inspiration, the possiblity of inspiration or the validity of a text. If it is not valid as a historical text Am,then it would follow that most if not all of tis content is not to be relied on as well. It would not be valuable in connection with the spiritual even if it did employ metaphors.D BertotI have got toget some things done, I will print out the other, read it then get back to you. I got caught upwith Josephs stuff last night, sorry.

Joesph writes [/qs]Technically, the sin of blasphemy does not occur even when there is a witness. It becomes a mandated crime only when done in public, and when the person is of sound mind.
This does not mean any normal person would do so in his private thoughts - that is not a normal trait even for a dis-believer, and it is not relevent here. Equally, to maintain the sanctitity of the law, one is innocent until proven guilty. With Capital punishment, there must not be even a miniscule degree of doubt.All the above does not impact that one's bad thought is not a crime or a sin. The greatest threat to the premise of law is if it is incorrect or exaggerated [also incorrect]. The OT law stands here, and it is evidenced by the judiciary system. You cannot convict one for a bad thought, nor can Heaven - even if Heaven is aware of that bad thought in one's mind. But this status quo is altered when there is an obsession and a planning to do so - that is a sin - as well as a crime. Its the difference between a stalker and one passing you by.[/qs]Joseph I will leave you with your insanity. This is the Word or the Lord.
"let the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart be acceptable in your sight o Lord."Both are requirements and Exodus 20:17 sets our thoughts apart from our actions forever, your philosophy will not change this fact. God is the judge of both our actions and thoughts. If you want to believe that "even heaven can not judge these things", then I leave you to your insanity.D BertotD Bertot

IamJoseph: I think the questions below have been touched upon but not fully discussed as yet. What are your ideas regarding the above questions you ask. Let's start there.All the best,
Ger

bertot: You wrote: What is conveyed in the literary text itself is what will determine "the possibility of inspiration or the validity of the text." It will be perceived as "inspired and valid" to some, and not so "valid or inspired" by others. What's New! And So What?I personally perceive the Hebrew Eden Narrative as "inspired" and "valid", metaphors and all. My thoughts go more toward the "consciousness of humanity" and the "origins of human consciousness." The ethereal realm or spiritual realm has many connotations depending upon who you pose ethereal and spiritual questions to. Jews and Christians have very different ways of interpreting the Hebrew Old Testament. Not all Jews agree with each other's OT exegesis, and not all Christians agree with each other's OT exegesis.Neither Jews {at least most of them} nor Christians {at least most of them} would agree with my translation and interpretation of the Hebrew Eden Narrative. So, what's new?All the best,
Ger

Joseph writes Again Joseph. "Let the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart be acceptable to you o Lord."Further, "Every imagination of thier heart was continuously evil" Now unless you are unlike everyone else, people think a whole lot more than they actually "do" things. I am certain that the people mentioned here actually did or carried out some if not most of these things. however, the text makes a clear distinction between the doing and the thought process, and God clearly states that every THOUGHT and IMAGINATION of their heart was continupously evil, even without the "doing". People simply cannot carry out every thought which they imagine. In other words they sinned (evil) by thier very thought process, without carring out any deed. let the person that believes in God and the scriptures as his word, refute the logic set out in this text and the conclusions I have drawn.D Bertot

AM writesGood, now we are getting somewhere and are starting to move forward. Exacally what is it in the narrative that the write "could not have experienced in your opinion" and how did he do this. what is so awe inspiring about a narrative written 4000 years ago by a primative?If there are things in the text that could not be a product of human knowledge would not this strongly suggest divine intervention? you could start by giving simple, understandable explanations from your standpoint. Like is he an actual entitiy with personality as an existent being. Now I understand you do not know all about this God, but surely you could answer this question, correct. Your avoiding the point again through rehtoric. The question is, if God inspired it in anyway, would the possibility of intervention not be a possibility as well. You seem to think there is something at work in the narrative more than mans abilities correct. I did not say that because a supernatural event happened, that that is what qualifies it as actual or factual. While this very thorough it again ignores the point at hand. I agree with most of your statement, however, at present I am only talking about the possibilites of inspiration in the Eden narrative, as you suggest over and over there seems to be more than man at work here. If indeed this is the case would it not follow that the other miracles mentioned in the rest of the scriptures Old or New would be a very real possibility.And yes my friend you are asking people to reject parts of the Word of God that employ the supernatural by statements, that suggest we should knock ourselves in the head if we believe they actually happened. The point is AM, we are trying to understand purposes bigger than ourselves here and if this fellow needs a knock in the head, are you going to trust much else of what he says, think about it AM. For it to have any real purpose it should be decided atleast for ones self if indeed God is at work in the narrative, before during or after ones study. If he is, it may be possible to find answers with eternal and spiritual purposes. So your purpose here is not to examine with a critical eye to find anything out about God, but simply to explore it. Has the narrative told you anyhting about God that you believe is knowable, demonstratable and verifiable, what would these be that you could share.Secondly, if one decides that God is at work in the narrative, it will greatly influence how he or she approches the rest of the word of God. If God would not make his self known in this manner, as you suggest and the narrative should not be rejected, of what good is it in establishing any spiritual truth or realites about God in the first place? How can it helps us understand God if it is a work of man with no help from God. How will his simple ancient enviornment helps us know more about the supreme natural God?More in a secondD Bertot

AM writesI suppose you will have to decide for yourself AM one way or another if God actually did inspire the words in the Eden narrative or not. It just seems strange that you hold it in such high and have the opinion that there are certain things in it that the people could not have known on thier own yet for all intents and purposes reject it as inspired by God. These are very honest statments and I appreciate you comprehensive approach from you standpoint. this is why I kept pressing the issue initially. I pretty much knew you rejected the supernatural for all intents and purposes. there is ofcourse much evidence to suggest the scriptures inspired and a product from God Prophecy, physical and scientific facts that people could not have known on thier own and the such like. Job knowing that the earth hangs in an empty space for example and many other numerous examples. But after it is all said and done some faith is required, even in your decision about the Eden narratives source and compositon. Is it from and by God to men? you are enamered by the Eden narrative, so it is not unusal that you would take this positon on it. others would say and be correct if it is the works of men, it is no better or worse than anyother creation narrative. After we understand that they they had a different perspective than ours on say natural things. How does this help us know if it from or by God. Certainly we can learn things from people in the past but how will it give us any assurance or even remote understandings about God if there is no way to know what they wrote was from or by God.D Bertot

AM writesSince you made this assertion go ahead and provide the information that will demonstrate this point about the 10 commandments. AM if God is not in the process then "human inspiration" is nothing more than human "imagination""human inspiration is a vital aspect of the suublime Mystery of life", what in the world does this mean, without the intervention and inspiration of God. You again are only describing the human mind at work interpreting what it percieves as reality, as in the Eden narrative. Im sure these people were very honest but is there any real knowable and verifiable spiritual information that we can first trust and then apply here today?In other words you claim that because we do not see God working by intervention today we should doubt these things happened. In the same way is there any reason to believe what these people wrote in the narrative is the meanings and conclusions you are attempting. what standard of measurement would you use to know you are even close. And if I get another interpretation from the metaphors is that ok, or do we have to stop with you interpretaion.these are hard questions to answer Am, if this is just a work of men.Which do you think it is, the work of strickly men, God or both at the same time?D BertotD Bertot

AM writesGiven the fact that the scriptures do not always make the miracles of a legedary or mythical nature, but place them in seemingly historical settings and also that the OT and NT are repleat with numerous miracles are we really justified in reassigning them as metaphorical or cultural anamolies?Does the Eden narrative not qualify as a supernatural inspired poem or story? your facination with it certainly cannot be limited to the fact that it correspondes to natural world only. It has to be all or nothing from the standpoint of being from God or not. It either is or it is not. If it is only the words of men then there is no way you can know your conclusions are even remotley accurate. your interpretations would be yours and yours alone, correct? this is nothing more than what ai just said.D Bertot

"Inspired" by who? and "valid" as what?
I am not interested in you interpretation at this point, only if you can decide whether it is inspired directly by your supreme ntaural God with a conscious and free will? Do you think its contents warrent that conclusion?D Bertot

bertot: You have given me "five" posts to reply to. Here is my response to your last post. Let's start here.

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AM wrote: I personally perceive the Hebrew Eden Narrative as "inspired" and "valid", metaphors and all. My thoughts go more toward the "consciousness of humanity" and the "origins of human consciousness." The ethereal realm or spiritual realm has many connotations depending upon who you pose ethereal and spiritual questions to. Jews and Christians have very different ways of interpreting the Hebrew Old Testament. Not all Jews agree with each other's OT exegesis, and not all Christians agree with each other's OT exegesis. Neither Jews {at least most of them} nor Christians {at least most of them} would agree with my translation and interpretation of the Hebrew Eden Narrative. So, what's new?

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To me the term “inspired” {in the context of the Hebrew Eden Narrative} denotes a mental connection between the “Eternal” and the “mortal”. As far as I know only humans, endowed with an advanced creative intellect, are capable of achieving this “Eternal”-“mortal” connection. This Connection can be referred to as “Eternal/mortal” or “Divine/carnal”, or “Spiritual/corporeal”, but regardless of the terminology employed in referring to “This Connection” {This Inspiration} such a “Connection/Inspiration” cannot and should not be regarded as “divine intervention”.To attempt to put the above concept in words that are more akin to your personal mindset:

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The term “Inspired” denotes “Man going to God”, NOT God intervening in the affairs of Man

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On to the question, “The Hebrew Eden Narrative is “valid as what?” Let me try to put this in the context of the territory on planet earth that is regarded by many as “The Holy Land.” This small piece of real estate”Canaan, Phoenicia, Israel, Judea”historically {really, actually} is where the first phonetic alphabet {>alephbeyth} emerged; is where the concept of a monotheistic Deity emerged; is where the first agrarian and urbanized human culture emerged; is where the first tent-village is found; is where the first signs of animal domestication is found; is where the earliest signs of farming is found; is where the oldest Cro-Magnon human remains are found. The Holy Land is where the transition from Paleolithic hunter-gatherer human cultures to Neolithic human civilizations is actually documented in the tangible ground itself. Now then, according to my research into the Hebrew Eden Narrative”a narrative like none other found in the ancient Near & Middle East; the origin of which scholars cannot be certain”this ancient and unique Hebrew Text describes in stunning detail {employing Hebrew Wisdom-Literature: riddle, metaphor, and poetic allegory} that which is documented in the tangible ground of The Holy Land. Thus, I perceive the Hebrew Eden Narrative as a “valid” poetic description of the human evolution that actually occurred and is documented in the actual dirt of the Holy Land. Again, the term “inspired””as applied in this context”denotes Man going to God {so to speak}, NOT God intervening in the affairs of Man through supernatural means. Using this definition of the term “inspired”= “Man connecting with the Eternal”, then the answer is “yes”, the contents of the Hebrew Eden Narrative warrants the conclusion that Man through Eternal-inspiration composed what is conveyed in the Hebrew Eden Narrative.I hope the above aids us in moving along with our discussion.All the best,
Ger

Thanks Am this one looks very interesing to get started with. I will let you go ahead and hit the others as well, I will tryand get to this one before work but that may not be possible, well will see.d bertot