Women In 1 Corinthians

Ok, here is the whole chapter so there's no confusion.

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1 Corinthians 14

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Gifts of Prophecy and Tongues

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1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

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6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.

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13For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. 16If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 17You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.

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18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

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20Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.

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22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

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Orderly Worship

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26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two”or at the most three”should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

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29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

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36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.

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39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

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I want to focus on the following quote which is directly from the chapter above.

quote:

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As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

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Ok, read that in context of the chapter. Ok, read it again. One more time.Let's look at each statement made in that particular passage.

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As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches.

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I see 2 ways you can possibly interpret this. One is by face value of those words and the other... you have to use a little bit of imagination.The first way is as written, that as in ALL the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. I don't think you can get anymore self-explanatory than that.The other interpretation is as ICANT seems to suggest, that women should remain silent when it comes to speaking in tongues. But why only women? Surely, if Paul was concern about people speaking in tongues or misinterpreting god's words, he would have stated just that, that both men and women should be careful with that. Instead, he specifically referred to women and ordering them to remain silent.

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They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.

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Again, 2 possible interpretations.The first is taking it at its face value, that women are not allowed to speak and they must be in submission as the Law says. Again, very self-explanatory.The second way to interpret this is as ICANT suggested, that women are not allowed to speak in tongues OR that they are not allowed to question those who are speaking in tongues. Again, why only target women?

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If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

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Again, 2 possible interpretations.The first is taking the words at its face value, that if the women want to inquire something they should ask their husbands at home because for them to speak in church is disgraceful. Very self-explanatory.The second way to interpret this is that women are not allowed to ask questions about those speaking in tongues and they should only ask their questions at home rather than speak in the church because it's disgraceful for them to speak in church about speaking in tongues.Um, why only target women if you didn't mean to downplay their role in society?As far as I can see this, both of these interpretations clearly put women in a position that is inferior to their male counterparts. ICANT, I am very confused, and so far you've refused to explain why you don't think this is an example of scripture putting down women. Here is a thread dedicated to this particular topic so please feel free to post as many messages on this as you need to. If you need more than 300, I will be happy to start a second thread on this.And also, here is a humble request for Admin. At anytime, if you feel you need to suspend ICANT for whatever reason in regard to this topic, please suspend me instead so ICANT has nothing to fear and thus should be able to fully explain this to me and others here who are very eager to hear his very wise explanation on this topic.

In this thread post post #78, member Hill Billy writes in response to T4C and me... So, let us look at the passage again.

quote:

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As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

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Did you notice the underlined portions, Hill Billy? "As in all the congregations of the saints" tell me that Paul was talking about church Law, not the law of the land.Think about it for a minute. We are talking about a time when christians were still a religious sect with only a few members compared to the other religions. In fact, it was being persecuted by both mainstream religions at the time as well as the Roman authority. I find it hard to believe that there was already a law of the land in place dictating how people should act or speak inside christian churches.Beside, you are directly contradicting ICANT in this. So, which one of you is right?Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

Bump for ICANT.

Could you make this a little bit clearer? I couldn't tell where you made the transition from "it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church" to "Will my women speak in church yes."

Honestly, I'm not being dense. All I saw was a lot of words talking about how you think women should be treated and then jump from "it is a shame for a woman to speak in church" to "will my women speak in church yes." Explain it to me please. I read it several times now. Still can't figure out where you decided it's ok to go against scripture.Added by edit.Oh yeah, you forgot to explain this part.

quote:

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As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches.

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Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

Sorry for the late reply. Time is something I don't have much of lately. Seems like my free time is inversely proportional to the number of things I have to do cubed.Anyway, let's look at the whole chapter again.

quote:

---

1 Corinthians 14
Gifts of Prophecy and Tongues

​

1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.

---

So, when Paul was referring to speaking in tongues, he was talking about people speaking in jibberish like so many do nowadays in churches while in trance-like state. He's clearly not talking about speaking in a foreign language.

quote:

---

Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

---

Here is another clue to this. Again, clearly, he's not talking about people speaking in a foreign language like you made it out to be.

quote:

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3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

​

6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.

​

13For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. 16If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 17You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.

​

18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

​

20Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.

​

22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

​

Orderly Worship

​

26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two”or at the most three”should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

​

29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

​

As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

​

36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.

​

39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

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Did you get that ICANT? In every part of that chapter, and in nearly every sentence, Paul mentioned speaking in tongues or prophesy except for that paragraph about women.Read it again, ICANT. Ask everyone else here. That really sounds to me like he was talking about speaking in tongues and then added in "by the way, women can't speak in church, blah blah blah".That paragraph about women not allowed to speak in church stands out as really not part of Paul's explanation about prophesy and tongues. It's just a brief reminder of a seperate issue that was related to speaking in tongues.Don't take my word for it. Ask everyone else here. Even Buzsaw would agree with me on this, that Paul wasn't talking about not allowing women to speak in a foreign language in church, which I think is pretty far fetched.Another thing is this. For thousands of years, people have been interpreting this as women not being allowed to speak in church. Then, here comes the latter part of the 20th century and all the sudden you started to interpret it as Paul not allowing women to speak in a foreign language in church.Again, ask everyone else here. Anyone who can even read at a 6th grade level with agree with me, that that paragraph was an extra bit put in by Paul to remind us of a seperate issue.Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

The bible is the written word of god. Every part of it is true. Ask the two resident preachers (ICANT and Buz).

I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic.I've read that whole chapter over and over and I still can't see how you could possibly interpret that as not allowing women to speak in a foreign language in church. I even explained in detail why I don't think there's anyway you could possibly interpret that bit as forbidding women to speak in a foreign language in church.Aren't you just trying to rationalize this like so many christians do?PS - I'll see you in heaven... from hell.

Read the whole chapter again. Be honest with yourself. Does that single paragraph fit in with the rest? Again, Paul somewhat wandered off topic to remind people of a separate issue that was related to the main topic.Ask yourself this question. When you talk about something, do you always 100% absolutely always 100% absolutely must stick true to the topic from top to bottom? Noone talks like that in real life. Not even in literature. There are bits that we all put into our words that are seperate issues from what we are talking about. Everything we say reminds us of something else, and sometimes we say it out loud.Read the whole chapter again. I even went through the trouble of outlining for you a few posts ago how the rest of the chapter fit in with speaking in tongues and prophesying except for that single paragraph. Are you honestly telling me that after reading the whole chapter you don't find that paragraph stick out one single bit?Here is another test to see if I'm right or you're right. Next time when you go to one of your preaching sessions, without hinting your stance, ask everyone to read that chapter and ask them if they thought Paul was talking about not allowing women to speak ina foreign language in church or not.No matter how many times I read it, and I've asked other people to read this chapter over and over, we all still agree that that paragraph did not appear to be talking about not allowing women to speak in a foreign language in church. I don't know why you are insisting that Paul was forbidding women to speak in a foreign language in church.For the lazy readers who don't want to go back a page to read the chapter, here it is again. Be honest to yourself for once. Ask yourself if that paragraph looks like it was talking about women speaking in a foreign language or not.

quote:

---

1 Corinthians 14
Gifts of Prophecy and Tongues

​

1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.

---

So, when Paul was referring to speaking in tongues, he was talking about people speaking in jibberish like so many do nowadays in churches while in trance-like state. He's clearly not talking about speaking in a foreign language.

quote:

---

Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

---

Here is another clue to this. Again, clearly, he's not talking about people speaking in a foreign language like you made it out to be.

quote:

---

3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

​

6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.

​

13For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. 16If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 17You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.

​

18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

​

20Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.

​

22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

​

Orderly Worship

​

26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two”or at the most three”should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

​

29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

​

As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

​

36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.

​

39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

---

Added by edit.Also ask yourself this question. The rest of the chapter, Paul was very specific when he talked about tongues and prophesy. He even used those words everytime he refered to them. But all the sudden, he was too lazy to say "it is disgraceful for women to speak in tongues or prophesy in church"? Look at the underlined portions in that paragraph. It is clear to me that he wasn't talking about not allowing women to speak in a foreign language in church. Edited by Taz, : No reason given.Edited by Taz, : No reason given.Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

Unknown? Who said anything about the word unknown? Here is that sentence again

quote:

---

1 Corinthians 14
Gifts of Prophecy and Tongues

​

1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.

---

Did you get that, ICANT? When Paul referred to speaking in tongue, he was talking about people speaking directly to god. How on Earth can you interpret that as speaking in a foreign language? Paul was clearly talking about people speaking in jibberish when they are in a trance-like state.Again, don't take my word for it. Ask anyone here or anyone at all at your congregation. They'll tell you the same thing.

*Sigh*I'm not trying to be dense and I'm not trying to be hardheaded. I'm simply pointing out obvious flaws in your interpretation. I honestly don't see how on Earth you could interpret "speaking in tongue" as speaking in a foreign language, especially when Paul specifically said those who speak in tongue are speaking directly to god. Are you saying that Mexicans who speak Spanish in an American church are speaking directly to god?

Even you would agree with me on this one. I just don't know how ICANT could interpret that bit as forbidding women to speak in a foreign language in church. It doesn't make any sense to me. Paul specifically said that to "speak in tongue" is to speak directly to god. How did ICANT interpret that to mean to "speak in tongue" is to speak in a foreign language like greek or french or whatever?

If in 3 days time I don't see any christian reacting or responding to johnfolton's sexist view, I'm going to take your silence as agreeing his view.Peace.

Remember our conversation about christians rarely ever speak up against crackpot christians as if they all agree with them? Silence is another way of approving or agreeing. All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing. And christians seem to be the ultimate pacifists when it comes to their brother christians speaking or doing evil.

Because there are 2 main groups of people on these boards: atheists and christians. Everytime an atheist says something wacky, he is piled on by a dozen or so other atheists. The same cannot be said about the christian side. It seems like christians welcome wacky comments from other christians with their silence.