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Author Topic:   Biblical Translation--Eden, 2
autumnman
Member (Idle past 5013 days)
Posts: 621
From: Colorado
Joined: 02-24-2008


Message 301 of 315 (463452)
04-17-2008 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by Dawn Bertot
04-17-2008 9:56 AM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
bertot:
I thought we were employing the biologies because you mentioned a specific amount of ribs.
The number of ribs of the human”male and female”body is significant in that as far back as one goes in the fossil record the rib cages of these proto-human species present the male and female of the species having the same number of ribs. It is extremely common that an author of a narrative such as the Hebrew Eden Narrative would direct attention to an actual, physical, anatomical reality that would prove his assertion. With the male and female human bodies having the exact same rib cage structure, as well as the fact that the Hebrew feminine noun tzela0 never being used to denote a human or animal rib, the traditional translation of the Hebrew Eden Narrative falls under considerable doubt. That was the point I was making.
Human biology directly relates to the paleontological, geological fossil record of early human existence on planet earth. And in regard to the Hebrew Eden Narrative, that fossil record directly relates to the 100,000 year old skeletal remains found on Mt. Carmel in Israel.
quote:
AM wrote: Furthermore, the Hebrew term for Mt. Carmel is harkarmel and literally means, "the high garden-land."Also, the Hebrew feminine noun traditionally translated "rib", tzela0 is never used to denote a human or animal rib.I can give you the "JEWISH VIRTUAL LIBRARY--THE CARMEL CAVES: DWELLINGS OF PREHISTORIC MAN" web-link, if you wish.
Yes I would like that website, thank you.
Here it is:
The Carmel Caves
quote:
AM wrote: According to my research, The ancient author of the Hebrew Eden Narrative was poetically, proverbially, allegorically, and metaphorically describing the actual “creation” of the modern human race.
When do you think the time frame of this was?
Approximately 100,000 years ago on Mt. Carmel. The fossil record, as you will see from the JVL web site, presents a transition from one type of proto-human to a human species Homo sapiens that eventually became the modern human race. I suspect that the author of the Hebrew Eden Narrative was somehow aware of this rather remarkable fact, and wrote about it, explaining how that incredible transition took place by employing proverb, riddle, and metaphor.
And so you think they were created fully human?
ha>adam does not become fully human until awakened from the “deep sleep” in Gen. 3:21, and sent from the Garden in Eden in Gen. 3:23, “to work the ground from which it was taken.” In Gen. 2:5 the purpose of the human creation is described, “to work the ground,” and the human-brute-animal is created from the ground in Gen. 2:7, before the Garden in Eden is established in Gen. 2:8.
You said "outside" earlier, that is why I asked about this specific text.
I was attempting to point out that lexicographically, how a particular word is employed, the feminine noun tzela0 is never used to denote a human or animal “rib”.
You have seen the BHS Hebrew text on the ”Scriptures4all’ web site. You could also buy “THE JEWISH PUPLICATION SOCIETY, TORAH COMMENTARY, GENESIS, by Nahum M. Sarna {ISBN 0-8276-0326-6)”.
Thank you.
quote:
AM wrote: This strongly suggests that it is God who is taking one from His sides. yhwh >elohiym = YHWH plural God is taking one of his “plural” aspects of Himself which would correspond to the “helper” which God said the human archetype was in need of in Gen. 2:18. Because God’s Name is the Tetragrammaton, that signifies “four”, we can postulate that the YHWH plural God would have “four” tzale0oth = sides: 1. Almighty; 2. Creative; 3. Destructive; 4. Eternal. It is the “Creative tzela0 = Side” of the plural God which God would bestow upon the “human flesh” beneath Her.
Your case seems to be built on two presuppositions. 1. that we can determine that the creative aspect of GOd is what is under consideration here, simply by the text
The Hebrew word for “woman” >ishah is traditionally rooted from the verb >anash which means “to be weak.” This verb root dictates that the traditional concept of “woman” is incongruent with the concept of “God making a helper.” God would not make a “weak” helper.
and 2. that we can determine that by the text Adam was lacking this quality, even though he already possesed the reasonong ability as indicated by his ability to understand the command.
“Adam” could not have understood the command issued in Gen. 2:16 & 17, and the fact of this lies in the fact that “Adam=humanity” still does not understand the two-fold command which God issued in Gen. 2:16 & 17. The author employed very specific wording in Gen. 2:16 & 17, and as yet humanity has not embraced the actual “words” the author used. The Commands that God issued in Gen. 2:16 & 17 are being issued to “US” for we are “Adam=humanity.” The “Adam” in the Eden Narrative was not in possession of “the knowledge of right and wrong” at the time God issued His two-fold Command.
I dont see how simply from the text without SPECULATION as you call it we can do this.
I hope I will be capable of sharing with you how the Hebrew Text itself conveys what the author of the Hebrew Eden Narrative is trying to tell us.
All the best,
Ger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-17-2008 9:56 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-17-2008 11:55 AM autumnman has not replied
 Message 308 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-17-2008 4:41 PM autumnman has not replied
 Message 309 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-17-2008 5:02 PM autumnman has replied

autumnman
Member (Idle past 5013 days)
Posts: 621
From: Colorado
Joined: 02-24-2008


Message 302 of 315 (463454)
04-17-2008 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by Dawn Bertot
04-17-2008 10:26 AM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
bertot:
According to the context of the Hebrew Eden Narrative, since the Hebrew word for "woman" is derived from the verb root which means "weak" it is extremely unlikely that God would make a "weak helper."
The feminine noun for "woman" is grammatically incongurent with the mansculine noun for "helper" used in the Hebrew Eden Narrative.
The Brown, Driver, & Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon of the Old Testament, Clarendon Press: Oxford, shows:
quote:
>ishah n.f. woman from >anash vb. be weak (pg. 60 & 61)
quote:
0ezer n.m. help from 0azar vb. to help (pg. 740) from 0azaz vb. be strong (pg. 738)
The above are two quotes directly from the Heb.-Eng. Lexicon.
All the best,
Ger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-17-2008 10:26 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

autumnman
Member (Idle past 5013 days)
Posts: 621
From: Colorado
Joined: 02-24-2008


Message 303 of 315 (463455)
04-17-2008 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by Dawn Bertot
04-17-2008 10:37 AM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
bertot:
Where is the division in the texr, that goes from figuative to literal.
The entire Hebrew Eden Narrative is a Hebrew Wisdom Poem, Proverb, consisting of riddles, metaphors, and symbolism. The "Deep Sleep" which begins in Gen. 2:21 signifies the author employing the masculine and feminine aspects of humanity as figurative representations of the two distinct aspects of human consciousness: The blood & The brains, or if you wish, The heart & the mind.
Do you see what I am attempting to share with you?
All the best,
Ger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-17-2008 10:37 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-17-2008 5:18 PM autumnman has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 304 of 315 (463456)
04-17-2008 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by autumnman
04-17-2008 11:17 AM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
To Proto-Autumnman, Just kidding, there homie. I have got toget some things done but these last few post of yours looks a s though they will be alot o fun to respon to. See, you in a little while.
D bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by autumnman, posted 04-17-2008 11:17 AM autumnman has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 305 of 315 (463458)
04-17-2008 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Dawn Bertot
04-16-2008 2:52 PM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
Thankyou brother bertot.
I learned many of these things from others. And we commonly speak of these things in our meetings locally and around the globe.
God‘s Economy: recovered by Witness Lee, enjoyed by local churches

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-16-2008 2:52 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-17-2008 3:21 PM jaywill has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 306 of 315 (463472)
04-17-2008 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by jaywill
04-17-2008 12:05 PM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
Thankyou brother bertot.
I learned many of these things from others. And we commonly speak of these things in our meetings locally and around the globe.
No problem Jaywill, you and others knowledge on here is very impressive. Having said that I am sure I could use your assistance with that very gifted Autumnman. And I am sure he would welcome your comments, if for no ohter reason they will be different than mine.
Thanks Again.
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by jaywill, posted 04-17-2008 12:05 PM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by autumnman, posted 04-17-2008 3:39 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

autumnman
Member (Idle past 5013 days)
Posts: 621
From: Colorado
Joined: 02-24-2008


Message 307 of 315 (463476)
04-17-2008 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Dawn Bertot
04-17-2008 3:21 PM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
bertot & jaywill:
I have requested Admin to allow us to open a new Thread on this particular subject: Biblical Translation”Eden, 3.
We will see if they will allow a third phase of our study and debate.
And, Yes, jaywill, you are always welcome to participate in our discussion. Although we do not often agree, I do appreciate your input and learn a great deal from you. I regard you as a friend, and I hope you will join our discussion.
All the best,
Ger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-17-2008 3:21 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 308 of 315 (463482)
04-17-2008 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by autumnman
04-17-2008 11:17 AM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
Autumnman writes
The number of ribs of the human”male and female”body is significant in that as far back as one goes in the fossil record the rib cages of these proto-human species present the male and female of the species having the same number of ribs. It is extremely common that an author of a narrative such as the Hebrew Eden Narrative would direct attention to an actual, physical, anatomical reality that would prove his assertion. With the male and female human bodies having the exact same rib cage structure, as well as the fact that the Hebrew feminine noun tzela0 never being used to denote a human or animal rib, the traditional translation of the Hebrew Eden Narrative falls under considerable doubt. That was the point I was making.
None of this ofcourse would disagree with the estimation I set forth on this item, it would only coroborate what I said about the number of ribs. Further, given the ENTIRE conext of the narrative as you call it, would not cast considerable doubt on the entire explanation of the story, in my view
And in regard to the Hebrew Eden Narrative, that fossil record directly relates to the 100,000 year old skeletal remains found on Mt. Carmel in Israel.
How would the Eden narrative have anything to do directly with 100,000years ago, atleast directly that we would be justified in tieing it with these events.
AM wrote: Furthermore, the Hebrew term for Mt. Carmel is harkarmel and literally means, "the high garden-land."
what is the significance of the name of this place, how does that have bearing on anything.
Approximately 100,000 years ago on Mt. Carmel. The fossil record, as you will see from the JVL web site, presents a transition from one type of proto-human to a human species Homo sapiens that eventually became the modern human race. I suspect that the author of the Hebrew Eden Narrative was somehow aware of this rather remarkable fact, and wrote about it, explaining how that incredible transition took place by employing proverb, riddle, and metaphor.
I dont think that by any strech of the imagination any of this would have much to do with the Eden story. Even if it did, according to evolutionists, people 100,000 years ago, physiologically were not much different than we are. I believe they say that man as we are now has been here for about 1,000,000 years. Yours, is strech at best. In this article you provided, they speak of tools and things of this nature.
By the way are you saying that God used the evolutionary method and then at some point, infused man later with this property. "Theistic evolution."
ha>adam does not become fully human until awakened from the “deep sleep” in Gen. 3:21, and sent from the Garden in Eden in Gen. 3:23, “to work the ground from which it was taken.” In Gen. 2:5 the purpose of the human creation is described, “to work the ground,” and the human-brute-animal is created from the ground in Gen. 2:7, before the Garden in Eden is established in Gen. 2:8.
Again, you will have to do much better than this to tie this place and its fossils to any story in the Bible. Atleast in my view. further, I dont think your estimation of when he became human is correct atleast according to the text, yours is an assertion. I will answer the rest of the Adam,s understanding in part 2 here.
More in a minute.
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by autumnman, posted 04-17-2008 11:17 AM autumnman has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 309 of 315 (463485)
04-17-2008 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by autumnman
04-17-2008 11:17 AM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
Bertot quotes
"The finds from these graves also show evidence of cult and rituals related to death and the spiritual realm."
Would man not far removed in the past from these people be much different?
ha>adam does not become fully human until awakened from the “deep sleep” in Gen. 3:21, and sent from the Garden in Eden in Gen. 3:23, “to work the ground from which it was taken.” In Gen. 2:5 the purpose of the human creation is described, “to work the ground,” and the human-brute-animal is created from the ground in Gen. 2:7, before the Garden in Eden is established in Gen. 2:8.
Isuppose we will not agree on this. i dont see however, how any thinking person cannot see this according to the text. Again, the knowledge to NOT EAT of the tree was not in the tree, it was in the command and in Adams mind. You simply have not addressed this point directly, but have simply talked around it, with above statements.
Adam” could not have understood the command issued in Gen. 2:16 & 17, and the fact of this lies in the fact that “Adam=humanity” still does not understand the two-fold command which God issued in Gen. 2:16 & 17. The author employed very specific wording in Gen. 2:16 & 17, and as yet humanity has not embraced the actual “words” the author used. The Commands that God issued in Gen. 2:16 & 17 are being issued to “US” for we are “Adam=humanity.” The “Adam” in the Eden Narrative was not in possession of “the knowledge of right and wrong” at the time God issued His two-fold Command.
Really Autumnman, I will not dignify this with an answer. If you cannot answer the objection simply move on.
More in a minute.
Thanks
D bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by autumnman, posted 04-17-2008 11:17 AM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by autumnman, posted 04-17-2008 5:23 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 310 of 315 (463487)
04-17-2008 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by autumnman
04-17-2008 11:47 AM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
The entire Hebrew Eden Narrative is a Hebrew Wisdom Poem, Proverb, consisting of riddles, metaphors, and symbolism. The "Deep Sleep" which begins in Gen. 2:21 signifies the author employing the masculine and feminine aspects of humanity as figurative representations of the two distinct aspects of human consciousness: The blood & The brains, or if you wish, The heart & the mind.
Do you see what I am attempting to share with you?
Ofcourse I understand what you are saying, but what we are saying is there anything in it, that would not allow it to be real or actual. Is your objection mostly to do with what you consider mythological, is that what disqualifies it in your mind. Is your real objection the supernatural?. Or is it what you consider poetic language or all of the above.
If it is only a poetic narrative, how does it reflect on the rest of the scriptures. Could and should (the scriptures) they still be considered as the words of men only.
Do the rest of the miracles in the scriptures have this same poetic ring to them as well?
D BERTOT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by autumnman, posted 04-17-2008 11:47 AM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by autumnman, posted 04-17-2008 5:39 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

autumnman
Member (Idle past 5013 days)
Posts: 621
From: Colorado
Joined: 02-24-2008


Message 311 of 315 (463488)
04-17-2008 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by Dawn Bertot
04-17-2008 5:02 PM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
bertot:
I must be doing a really lousy job communicating my thoughts to you.
At the conclusion of Gen. 2:7 the author employs the following clause:
quote:
and he became regarding a nepesh chayah
This is what the BDB Heb.-Eng. Lexicon says, and I quote:
quote:
"The nepesh becomes a living being; by God's breathing nishmath chayiym=breath of life into the nostrils of its basar=flesh; of man Gn 2:7; by implication of animals also Gn 2:19; man is nepesh chayah, a living, breathing being Gn 2:7; elsewhere nepesh chayah is always of animals Gn 1:20, 24, 30; & 9:12, 15, 16."
Read the above quote slowly and carefully, and then answer this question; could a dog understand the two-fold command issued in Gen. 2:16 & 17?
At least grace me with a reply.
Thanks,
Ger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-17-2008 5:02 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-17-2008 6:06 PM autumnman has not replied
 Message 314 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-17-2008 6:14 PM autumnman has not replied

autumnman
Member (Idle past 5013 days)
Posts: 621
From: Colorado
Joined: 02-24-2008


Message 312 of 315 (463491)
04-17-2008 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by Dawn Bertot
04-17-2008 5:18 PM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
bertot: you wrote
Is your objection mostly to do with what you consider mythological, is that what disqualifies it in your mind. Is your real objection the supernatural?. Or is it what you consider poetic language or all of the above.
If it is only a poetic narrative, how does it reflect on the rest of the scriptures. Could and should (the scriptures) they still be considered as the words of men only.
Do the rest of the miracles in the scriptures have this same poetic ring to them as well?
I do not have an objection with the Hebrew Eden Narrative. I do have a problem with the expositor interpretive English translation of the Hebrew Eden Text.
The rest of the miracles in the Scriptures may well have the same poetic ring to them, but I have not studied them to the same extent that I have researched the Hebrew Eden Text.
All the best,
Ger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-17-2008 5:18 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 313 of 315 (463493)
04-17-2008 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by autumnman
04-17-2008 5:23 PM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
AM writesRead the above quote slowly and carefully, and then answer this question; could a dog understand the two-fold command issued in Gen. 2:16 & 17?
Do you think a dog could obey the commands?
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by autumnman, posted 04-17-2008 5:23 PM autumnman has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 314 of 315 (463494)
04-17-2008 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by autumnman
04-17-2008 5:23 PM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
I must be doing a really lousy job communicating my thoughts to you.
You not doing a bad job, its that you are trying to communicate an impossible position. God made man in his image, at the exact point of his creation, that is the distinction you are missing. Gen 1:2-27.
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by autumnman, posted 04-17-2008 5:23 PM autumnman has not replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 315 of 315 (463497)
04-17-2008 6:31 PM


Thread moved to Chapter 3
We have moved beyond the 300 post mark. This thread is continued in 3rd installment.
Edited by AdminNosy, : correct the author

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