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Author | Topic: Biblical Translation--Eden, 2 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
autumnman Member (Idle past 5013 days) Posts: 621 From: Colorado Joined: |
bertot:
I thought we were employing the biologies because you mentioned a specific amount of ribs. The number of ribs of the human”male and female”body is significant in that as far back as one goes in the fossil record the rib cages of these proto-human species present the male and female of the species having the same number of ribs. It is extremely common that an author of a narrative such as the Hebrew Eden Narrative would direct attention to an actual, physical, anatomical reality that would prove his assertion. With the male and female human bodies having the exact same rib cage structure, as well as the fact that the Hebrew feminine noun tzela0 never being used to denote a human or animal rib, the traditional translation of the Hebrew Eden Narrative falls under considerable doubt. That was the point I was making. Human biology directly relates to the paleontological, geological fossil record of early human existence on planet earth. And in regard to the Hebrew Eden Narrative, that fossil record directly relates to the 100,000 year old skeletal remains found on Mt. Carmel in Israel.
quote: Yes I would like that website, thank you. Here it is:The Carmel Caves quote: When do you think the time frame of this was? Approximately 100,000 years ago on Mt. Carmel. The fossil record, as you will see from the JVL web site, presents a transition from one type of proto-human to a human species Homo sapiens that eventually became the modern human race. I suspect that the author of the Hebrew Eden Narrative was somehow aware of this rather remarkable fact, and wrote about it, explaining how that incredible transition took place by employing proverb, riddle, and metaphor. And so you think they were created fully human? ha>adam does not become fully human until awakened from the “deep sleep” in Gen. 3:21, and sent from the Garden in Eden in Gen. 3:23, “to work the ground from which it was taken.” In Gen. 2:5 the purpose of the human creation is described, “to work the ground,” and the human-brute-animal is created from the ground in Gen. 2:7, before the Garden in Eden is established in Gen. 2:8.
You said "outside" earlier, that is why I asked about this specific text. I was attempting to point out that lexicographically, how a particular word is employed, the feminine noun tzela0 is never used to denote a human or animal “rib”.You have seen the BHS Hebrew text on the ”Scriptures4all’ web site. You could also buy “THE JEWISH PUPLICATION SOCIETY, TORAH COMMENTARY, GENESIS, by Nahum M. Sarna {ISBN 0-8276-0326-6)”. Thank you. quote: Your case seems to be built on two presuppositions. 1. that we can determine that the creative aspect of GOd is what is under consideration here, simply by the text The Hebrew word for “woman” >ishah is traditionally rooted from the verb >anash which means “to be weak.” This verb root dictates that the traditional concept of “woman” is incongruent with the concept of “God making a helper.” God would not make a “weak” helper. and 2. that we can determine that by the text Adam was lacking this quality, even though he already possesed the reasonong ability as indicated by his ability to understand the command. “Adam” could not have understood the command issued in Gen. 2:16 & 17, and the fact of this lies in the fact that “Adam=humanity” still does not understand the two-fold command which God issued in Gen. 2:16 & 17. The author employed very specific wording in Gen. 2:16 & 17, and as yet humanity has not embraced the actual “words” the author used. The Commands that God issued in Gen. 2:16 & 17 are being issued to “US” for we are “Adam=humanity.” The “Adam” in the Eden Narrative was not in possession of “the knowledge of right and wrong” at the time God issued His two-fold Command.
I dont see how simply from the text without SPECULATION as you call it we can do this. I hope I will be capable of sharing with you how the Hebrew Text itself conveys what the author of the Hebrew Eden Narrative is trying to tell us. All the best,Ger
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autumnman Member (Idle past 5013 days) Posts: 621 From: Colorado Joined: |
bertot:
According to the context of the Hebrew Eden Narrative, since the Hebrew word for "woman" is derived from the verb root which means "weak" it is extremely unlikely that God would make a "weak helper."The feminine noun for "woman" is grammatically incongurent with the mansculine noun for "helper" used in the Hebrew Eden Narrative. The Brown, Driver, & Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon of the Old Testament, Clarendon Press: Oxford, shows:
quote: quote: The above are two quotes directly from the Heb.-Eng. Lexicon. All the best,Ger
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autumnman Member (Idle past 5013 days) Posts: 621 From: Colorado Joined: |
bertot:
Where is the division in the texr, that goes from figuative to literal. The entire Hebrew Eden Narrative is a Hebrew Wisdom Poem, Proverb, consisting of riddles, metaphors, and symbolism. The "Deep Sleep" which begins in Gen. 2:21 signifies the author employing the masculine and feminine aspects of humanity as figurative representations of the two distinct aspects of human consciousness: The blood & The brains, or if you wish, The heart & the mind. Do you see what I am attempting to share with you? All the best,Ger
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Dawn Bertot Member Posts: 3571 Joined: |
To Proto-Autumnman, Just kidding, there homie. I have got toget some things done but these last few post of yours looks a s though they will be alot o fun to respon to. See, you in a little while.
D bertot
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Thankyou brother bertot.
I learned many of these things from others. And we commonly speak of these things in our meetings locally and around the globe. God‘s Economy: recovered by Witness Lee, enjoyed by local churches
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Dawn Bertot Member Posts: 3571 Joined: |
Thankyou brother bertot.
I learned many of these things from others. And we commonly speak of these things in our meetings locally and around the globe. No problem Jaywill, you and others knowledge on here is very impressive. Having said that I am sure I could use your assistance with that very gifted Autumnman. And I am sure he would welcome your comments, if for no ohter reason they will be different than mine. Thanks Again. D Bertot
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autumnman Member (Idle past 5013 days) Posts: 621 From: Colorado Joined: |
bertot & jaywill:
I have requested Admin to allow us to open a new Thread on this particular subject: Biblical Translation”Eden, 3. We will see if they will allow a third phase of our study and debate. And, Yes, jaywill, you are always welcome to participate in our discussion. Although we do not often agree, I do appreciate your input and learn a great deal from you. I regard you as a friend, and I hope you will join our discussion. All the best,Ger
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Dawn Bertot Member Posts: 3571 Joined: |
Autumnman writes
The number of ribs of the human”male and female”body is significant in that as far back as one goes in the fossil record the rib cages of these proto-human species present the male and female of the species having the same number of ribs. It is extremely common that an author of a narrative such as the Hebrew Eden Narrative would direct attention to an actual, physical, anatomical reality that would prove his assertion. With the male and female human bodies having the exact same rib cage structure, as well as the fact that the Hebrew feminine noun tzela0 never being used to denote a human or animal rib, the traditional translation of the Hebrew Eden Narrative falls under considerable doubt. That was the point I was making. None of this ofcourse would disagree with the estimation I set forth on this item, it would only coroborate what I said about the number of ribs. Further, given the ENTIRE conext of the narrative as you call it, would not cast considerable doubt on the entire explanation of the story, in my view
And in regard to the Hebrew Eden Narrative, that fossil record directly relates to the 100,000 year old skeletal remains found on Mt. Carmel in Israel. How would the Eden narrative have anything to do directly with 100,000years ago, atleast directly that we would be justified in tieing it with these events.
AM wrote: Furthermore, the Hebrew term for Mt. Carmel is harkarmel and literally means, "the high garden-land." what is the significance of the name of this place, how does that have bearing on anything.
Approximately 100,000 years ago on Mt. Carmel. The fossil record, as you will see from the JVL web site, presents a transition from one type of proto-human to a human species Homo sapiens that eventually became the modern human race. I suspect that the author of the Hebrew Eden Narrative was somehow aware of this rather remarkable fact, and wrote about it, explaining how that incredible transition took place by employing proverb, riddle, and metaphor. I dont think that by any strech of the imagination any of this would have much to do with the Eden story. Even if it did, according to evolutionists, people 100,000 years ago, physiologically were not much different than we are. I believe they say that man as we are now has been here for about 1,000,000 years. Yours, is strech at best. In this article you provided, they speak of tools and things of this nature. By the way are you saying that God used the evolutionary method and then at some point, infused man later with this property. "Theistic evolution."
ha>adam does not become fully human until awakened from the “deep sleep” in Gen. 3:21, and sent from the Garden in Eden in Gen. 3:23, “to work the ground from which it was taken.” In Gen. 2:5 the purpose of the human creation is described, “to work the ground,” and the human-brute-animal is created from the ground in Gen. 2:7, before the Garden in Eden is established in Gen. 2:8. Again, you will have to do much better than this to tie this place and its fossils to any story in the Bible. Atleast in my view. further, I dont think your estimation of when he became human is correct atleast according to the text, yours is an assertion. I will answer the rest of the Adam,s understanding in part 2 here. More in a minute. D Bertot
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Dawn Bertot Member Posts: 3571 Joined: |
Bertot quotes
"The finds from these graves also show evidence of cult and rituals related to death and the spiritual realm." Would man not far removed in the past from these people be much different?
ha>adam does not become fully human until awakened from the “deep sleep” in Gen. 3:21, and sent from the Garden in Eden in Gen. 3:23, “to work the ground from which it was taken.” In Gen. 2:5 the purpose of the human creation is described, “to work the ground,” and the human-brute-animal is created from the ground in Gen. 2:7, before the Garden in Eden is established in Gen. 2:8. Isuppose we will not agree on this. i dont see however, how any thinking person cannot see this according to the text. Again, the knowledge to NOT EAT of the tree was not in the tree, it was in the command and in Adams mind. You simply have not addressed this point directly, but have simply talked around it, with above statements.
Adam” could not have understood the command issued in Gen. 2:16 & 17, and the fact of this lies in the fact that “Adam=humanity” still does not understand the two-fold command which God issued in Gen. 2:16 & 17. The author employed very specific wording in Gen. 2:16 & 17, and as yet humanity has not embraced the actual “words” the author used. The Commands that God issued in Gen. 2:16 & 17 are being issued to “US” for we are “Adam=humanity.” The “Adam” in the Eden Narrative was not in possession of “the knowledge of right and wrong” at the time God issued His two-fold Command. Really Autumnman, I will not dignify this with an answer. If you cannot answer the objection simply move on. More in a minute. Thanks D bertot
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Dawn Bertot Member Posts: 3571 Joined: |
The entire Hebrew Eden Narrative is a Hebrew Wisdom Poem, Proverb, consisting of riddles, metaphors, and symbolism. The "Deep Sleep" which begins in Gen. 2:21 signifies the author employing the masculine and feminine aspects of humanity as figurative representations of the two distinct aspects of human consciousness: The blood & The brains, or if you wish, The heart & the mind. Do you see what I am attempting to share with you? Ofcourse I understand what you are saying, but what we are saying is there anything in it, that would not allow it to be real or actual. Is your objection mostly to do with what you consider mythological, is that what disqualifies it in your mind. Is your real objection the supernatural?. Or is it what you consider poetic language or all of the above. If it is only a poetic narrative, how does it reflect on the rest of the scriptures. Could and should (the scriptures) they still be considered as the words of men only. Do the rest of the miracles in the scriptures have this same poetic ring to them as well? D BERTOT
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autumnman Member (Idle past 5013 days) Posts: 621 From: Colorado Joined: |
bertot:
I must be doing a really lousy job communicating my thoughts to you. At the conclusion of Gen. 2:7 the author employs the following clause:
quote: This is what the BDB Heb.-Eng. Lexicon says, and I quote:
quote: Read the above quote slowly and carefully, and then answer this question; could a dog understand the two-fold command issued in Gen. 2:16 & 17? At least grace me with a reply. Thanks,Ger
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autumnman Member (Idle past 5013 days) Posts: 621 From: Colorado Joined: |
bertot: you wrote
Is your objection mostly to do with what you consider mythological, is that what disqualifies it in your mind. Is your real objection the supernatural?. Or is it what you consider poetic language or all of the above. If it is only a poetic narrative, how does it reflect on the rest of the scriptures. Could and should (the scriptures) they still be considered as the words of men only. Do the rest of the miracles in the scriptures have this same poetic ring to them as well? I do not have an objection with the Hebrew Eden Narrative. I do have a problem with the expositor interpretive English translation of the Hebrew Eden Text. The rest of the miracles in the Scriptures may well have the same poetic ring to them, but I have not studied them to the same extent that I have researched the Hebrew Eden Text. All the best,Ger
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Dawn Bertot Member Posts: 3571 Joined: |
AM writesRead the above quote slowly and carefully, and then answer this question; could a dog understand the two-fold command issued in Gen. 2:16 & 17?
Do you think a dog could obey the commands? D Bertot
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Dawn Bertot Member Posts: 3571 Joined: |
I must be doing a really lousy job communicating my thoughts to you. You not doing a bad job, its that you are trying to communicate an impossible position. God made man in his image, at the exact point of his creation, that is the distinction you are missing. Gen 1:2-27. D Bertot
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
We have moved beyond the 300 post mark. This thread is continued in 3rd installment.
Edited by AdminNosy, : correct the author
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