fulfilled prophecy - specific examples.

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I am beyond stunned that you have used this fake quote again.

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Here you have it again - just to dispell any comprehension problem or blatant denial of historical truth:

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Pope, named Vicar of Christ, speaking to Herzl: 'BUT IN ORDER FOR US TO COME OUT FOR THE JEWISH PEOPLES AS YOU DESIRE, THEY WOULD FIRST HAVE TO BE CONVERTED [TO CHRISTIANITY]. THE JEWS HAVE NOT RECOGNISED OUR LORD, THEREFORE WE CANNOT RECOGNISE THE JEWISH PEOPLE'

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More: Christian Attitudes Towards the State of Israel

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Does it mean christians must also lose their lands because they did not follow Mohammed? Edited by AdminAsgara, : edited long url to fix page width - it isn't hard to do ppl

There was no guile in Jesus Christ. There is no deceit anywhere in His whole being. Christ did not revile. He did not threaten. And Peter shows that He behaved as Isaiah predicted the Messiah would in Isaiah 53, going before His tormentors as a speechless lamb.So His tears for Jerusalem were genuine. I know He cares more for the welfare of Israel than you ever will, but in righteousness, not in fleshly favoritism or drunken national pride. No. YOU take the Pope and throw as many stones at him as you wish. You are not going to morph the Messiah Jesus into the Pope.I am ignoring your geo-political on popes, UN, European history, and what not, from here on out. I think you have diverted the subject matter to other arguments.We are talking here about fulfilled prophesies. Take your beef with the Pope to a forum where supporters of the Pope are debating the political attitudes of the Roman Catholic Church. Your arguments are misplaced in this discussion. And if this is all you have left to talk about, then I suppose we have come to the conclusion of our dialogue.As for me I noticed that Matthew 24:2 was by far not the only prophesy Jesus spoke about Jerusalem or Israel. He spoke of the gloriousness of her kingdom and how His disciples would see it. And some who should have been there, but rejected the Messiah, will be in the outer darkness, away from the realm of His glory: And He spoke that the twelve disiciples (not counting Judas who was replaced) would sit on twelve thrones over the twelve tribes of Israel: The first Jewish disciple did inquire when Jesus would restore the kingdom of Israel 40 days after His resurrection. He told them that those plans were in the Father's timing. But in the mean time they should preach the gospel of the new covenant to all the world: Lastly, in His second coming He will restore the kingdom of Israel, reward His saints who believed in Him. But I will end with His prophesy that He will fulfill these promises to gather up the Jews to enjoy thier inheritance under their true Messiah: In the end times false Messiahs, false prophets and false Christs will be thought to have come to deliver Israel. The heavens and the earth also will be in supernatural calamities. Christ will come in His Second Coming and fulfill these OT prophecies as indicated in Matt. 24:31:Deut. 30:3-5;
Isa. 43:5-7; 49:9-13, 22-26; 51:11; 56:8; 60:4;
Isa. 62:10-12; 27:13;
Ezek. 34:13; 37:21; 28:25 Jerusalem will be the capital of the earth. And the Messiah Christ will establish the 1,000 year millennial kingdom as a prelude to the eternal age. Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit. And the earth will be restored to an Edenic situation.And the Jews will lead the nations to worship God as the Son of God reigns on His throne of glory in Israel.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Who being reviled did not revile in return; suffering, He did not rheaten but kept commiting all to Him who judges righteously;

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Who Himself bore up our sins in His body on the tree, in order that we, having died to sin, might live to righteousness; by whose bruise you were healed.

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Obviously, you see what I cannot see, which is fine. I can only debate historical facts. I don't see any truth which disregards the sacrifices made by all Jews in this time, nor do I see any 'healing' you mention. BTW, 1 Million Jews 2000 years ago, was like 6 M today: so here was a true holocaust, and the destruction of a nation. I can direct you to depictions of the Temple preists, knowing they were going to die, continued their services, while witnessing their families slaughtered. What healing? What sacrifice? Do you not see that the issue of sacrifice becomes a terrible thing when it disregards what else occured here? Do you think the 1.1 million souls who sacrificed themselves had no meaning - then please prove a greater sacrifice in Geo-History. I'm listening?

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So His tears for Jerusalem were genuine. I know He cares more for the welfare of Israel than you ever will, but in righteousness, not in fleshly favoritism or drunken national pride.

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But obviously, Israel was not meriting to be saved - because they continued being Jewish - a terrible crime to follow what they did for 2000 years before hristianity emerged. What else is new! You are protected from not accepting Islam - unlike those bad jews! This is what is the problem: two religions basing their entire belief on the villification of another, while both doctrines contradict each other, and of course - its written in holy scripture, so it is the only truth, and non-negotiable!I say, these two religions will come of age when they can stand on the foundation of their own beliefs - without inventing Jewish devils to prop them up. Today, every evil, including 9/11, Tsunamis, AIDs, you name it - are Zionist Plots. All it means is no one in christianity or islam is capable of an original thought or action - they are all angels and all the bad things is because of the Jews. Else you got no bleief! But my book says there is also a motive here: like both accusers got up while chanting Israel is dead. My book says you guys should have done the reverse when you ascended to a Gdly belief: you cannot steal what is not yours, and slander the owners falsely, working to destrpy them so none can point a finger at you. Where is the healing seen the past 2000 years?

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I am ignoring your geo-political on popes, UN, European history, and what not, from here on out. I think you have diverted the subject matter to other arguments.

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And I'll ignore all what you said about Jesus, and limit myself to the historical deeds of European Christianity. Do you consider Isabela of Spain as a Saint - would jesus? What do think Jesus would tell a Pope who says Israel cannot exist because they followed the law of Moses? The Muslims say Israel cannot exist because they are born of apes, their belief is wrong, and no other religion can prevail in the M/E. Can you not see a problem here?

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We are talking here about fulfilled prophesies. Take your beef with the Pope to a forum where supporters of the Pope are debating the political attitudes of the Roman Catholic Church. Your arguments are misplaced in this discussion.

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Fullfilled can only be evidenced via open history. You want to select what you like, and ignore what is not nice. I understand this, everyone did wrongs. But terms such as healed and sacrifice, amounts to zero when it is so blatantly selective, then goes on to list why those who sacrificed themselves so majestically are made the bad guys who got what they deserved. Horray for Rome and the Church. If it makes you happy.If there's a problem facing humanity - its not with the Jews or Israel. This nation never robbed and plundered what belongs to another in all their 4000 year history - its the reverse, only it is fronted by Jesus and Mohammed for its justification. Fix it - then tell me to go to the Pope. This is the task of good christians - and that will result in fullfillment. But for Israel, christianity and Islam would have to face off each other: what happens when there's no scapegoat anymore - who will be the bad guys then? From what I see, only the OT can save the NT - its hardly the other way around.

It is an unspeakable tragedy.But then again the very existence of Israel today is somewhat miraculous. She should not exist. Where are the Hittites today? Where can we find the Jebusites or the Pheonicians today? Where are the Philistines today? Where are the nations of these great ancient peoples?Rememeber God said that He was not choosing them because they were a great and plentiful people. In 1948 Israel became a nation again. Bible scholars and students of prophecy sat up and took notice. And we've been watching events very carefully ever since.The leaves have grown tender and the summer is near, as Jesus said concerning when we see these things. I don't know. Something in me hopes not. In the book of Revelation it says that God preserves 144,000 out of every tribe of the twelve tribes of Israel. I don't think that they turn to Christ until the very end. The Bible says that God preserves them.Paul taught that "all Israel shall be saved". Some of us still wonder exactly what Paul meant.You may understand that my own cultural backround has much sorrowful historical suffering. I am African American. I have ample cause to be bitter about the historic Christianity also. Some theologians justified slavery with the Bible and taught that blacks were a cursed race destined to be slaves - the so-called Hamitic curse of Genesis was thier basis.These things I have had to wrestle with. Many blacks gave up the New Testament for Islam wrongly thinking that Islam was "the Black Man's Religion". They tought their children for years that Christianity was "the White Man's Religion". Of course Islam has a history of racially based slavery also. But many many of my friends wrote off the Gospel of Jesus as intrinsically "Anti - Black".So while you have your historical demons to wrestle with, I have had mine also.But I came to the conclusion that it is man's way to use what is most true, most holy, and most right to serve as a banner for their selfish aims. Of course to do evil, the evil doer will justify his evil with what is most noble, most beautiful, and most righteous. This is reflection on the depravity of man. You have a point. But like I said, Israel should not exist today. You may choose to think that Christ has nothing to do with that. But I think Christ has something to do with that.I did not say Christianity needs to be thanked. But I did say I believe Christ has something to do with the reformation of the nation Israel today.I would suggest that you read again the story of Joseph and his brothers.Joseph had a dream. His dream caused his brothers to hate him. Even his father Jacob thought "Your mother and I and your brothers come to bow before you little Joseph? This is too much."The very dream the Joseph had is what caused his troubles. God was so sovereign over the whole matter. The dream caused them to sell Joseph to the slave masters. In Egypt Joseph became a great leader. And because of the famine his brothers had to come down to Egypt.They bowed before him. He was the one able to keep them alive. Yet they did not even recognize him. Joseph reconized them. He could hardly contain his emotions. But he did. And he spent some time to discipline his brothers with various examinations of their hearts. He taught them a good lesson.Eventually, Joseph made himself known to his brothers. They bowed down to the earth before him and he forgave them.Has this story nothing to do with Jesus Christ? I would encourage you to read it again with prayer to your God. Three days Joseph was in the pit, betrayed by his brothers. Three days Jesus was in the grave crucified at the request of the chief priests.As the brothers did not recognize Joseph who was keeping them alive, I firmly believe that this story was a symbolic prediction of Christ. Today, similarly, Israel and most of the Jews do not realize their long forsaken "brother" the Messiah Jesus.This is why I insisted with other posters that I don't want to study the Old Testament without the light from the New Testament. No we cannot steal what is not ours.But salvation through the death and resurrection of the Son of God is ours. It has been paid for by the blood of a Perfect Man who was. As a Lamb without spot and without blemish.I don't think He is the Savior of the world. I know He is. I don't think He is the Son of God. I know He is.I'm sorry. If you want God to be on your side then you have to let Him win you over to His side. Then you will have God on your side.That goes for all of us. Actually, Christ did not come to take sides. He came to take charge - to take over. They're wrong.Before the second coming of Christ, the Antichrist will put down all religions and demand that he be worshipped as God.The history of that region and of this present age will end with a man and his armies who will directly oppose God and physically seek to fight against the Second Coming of Christ.

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Obviously, you see what I cannot see, which is fine. I can only debate historical facts. I don't see any truth which disregards the sacrifices made by all Jews in this time, nor do I see any 'healing' you mention. BTW, 1 Million Jews 2000 years ago, was like 6 M today: so here was a true holocaust, and the destruction of a nation.

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It is an unspeakable tragedy.

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It is the reason I do not harken to the gospels, historically or morally. It would be fine to recognise something special of Jesus, these are mysterious compulsions, and I can acknowledge something is happening here, and that his followers are genuinely Godly inclined. I know that believing christians will sacrifice their lives or murder for this cause, as most religionists would. But this is not relevent here.When it is continued without any redress of a million innocent people massacred in its midst, with silence and villification, it ceases being a true theology or anything remotely connected with Godliness or morals. IMHO, to be christian or a good person, means acknowledging this and changing it. The Gospels is perpertrating a lie by omission: it is a serious error for a religion, and it has become a stumbling block. The rule is, 'A FALSEHOOD AND THE HOLY ONE CANNOT ABIDE TOGETHER'.I already showed you, mysteriously, the OT contains a command not to change anything, a very bold and high risk ask of anyone and any nation, considering the advancements and changes the world goes through. But this turns to be the only means christianity can change and correct itself: you have no such command, and you have in fact flaunted this law by selecting what is acceptable of God's laws: this caused a break of christianity from its mother religion.I know that the last, late Pope made canonical changes to remedy some errors seen in the gospel teachings, but this was not done sufficiently. Like all religions and religious people, christianity must know its salvation cannot come via such errors, but only via the law given at Sinai: namely if you did and do wrong, you have to correct it. The law is fullfilled only by its honoring, not its flaunting.This is what the law is all about - and there is no salvation by joining a VIP club or claiming salvation by a name. This is true for all peoples, jews, christians, muslims, buddhists, even athiest peoples. Thus I admire the OT, which does not give any immunity to wanton crimes on the basis of which religion they belong to. There are no names here, and the message transcends the messenger: correct laws are pristine and can stand on their own, to the extent even the Creator abides by His laws. There can be no truth by belief in the Gospels when historical truth is denied and flaunted.

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But then again the very existence of Israel today is somewhat miraculous.

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No thanks to the church and the mosque, is the correct conclusion here. Speak truth. This is where the gospels have brought you, and it must be corrected. It is ubsurd to believe Israel returned to prove the gospels, when this occured despite all the gospels and quran's pledges. When a Pope shakes hand with Arafat, and uses the term Palestinians to describe Muslims, he is perpertrating a great crime and a lie, and he is not confused of its import. I see the Evengelicals at least showing some coherence here: it is ok to believe salvation will come when what was robbed from the jews is corrected, while it is a different thing to wait for Israel's demise as a proof of the gospel's racism and false charges against Jews.The Vatican is condoning genocide via PC and silence, while being an actual historical witness of Israel's rights, and the name palestinian, and many chritians are screaming IN JESUS to deflect from it. How crazy! How is it different from the doctrines of Hamas? Can any European country prevail with the demands made upon Israel - so why impose it and accept it?

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She should not exist.

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The Arab muslims also agree Israel should exist - on the condition her head is chopped off first, and that they have nothing against Jews per se, and that actually there are no jews today, they all converted to Islam, the Jewish Temple site is a myth, Moses was a muslim, Jewish scripture is distorted, it is a blessing to kill jews, and nothing can be changed of this fantasic scripture of truth and justice, etc, etc. Apart from these minor conditions, everything is a ok and they agree to peace. But they are emulating what European christianity says and did, and you do not see any reason to correct all this. Just shout IN JC and ALLAH AKBAR while doing so. But my pursuit is truthfullness as best as I can muster, which transcends all beliefs.

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Paul taught that "all Israel shall be saved". Some of us still wonder exactly what Paul meant.

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So you think Israel is saved because of the gospels, or because of Jesus sacrificing himself, and if this is not the case then I am bad - it hurts your core beliefs? I don't agree. You neglect that this event occured while all christian countries slammed their doors shut to any Jewish immigration, including US, UK, CANADA, AUSTRALIA. Not to mention all Islamic states massacring Jews at the height of the holocaust and going begging Hitler not to let any Jews escape alive, Briton's forbidding entry of Jews fleeing Europe to get to Palestine - contradicting their own Balfour, and when Europe's chimneys still fumed. At this time, France sent 10,000 jewish children to the Camps to be exterminated, and Briton sent boat loads of refugee Jews back to the camps in Europe: what happened about correcting these crimes? What was the Pope doing at this time, as a representative of jesus? Today, both christianity and islam see Israel's return not as a mark against their deeds, but as a tragedy, and are both alligned in over-turning this event.Jerusalem is to be divided, the main quest today, but no christians quote what this will mean, and what is also a prophesy in its making: JERUSALEM SHALL BE A BURDEN UNTO THE NATIONS. Is this true today? Is Israel's destiny as per the gospels or the quran - or despite these? Despite all the religious fervor, I see both Jesus and Mohammed harkeing to the true God and to truth. You see it differently. There is much controversy in the camps!

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You may understand that my own cultural backround has much sorrowful historical suffering. I am African American. I have ample cause to be bitter about the historic Christianity also. Some theologians justified slavery with the Bible and taught that blacks were a cursed race destined to be slaves - the so-called Hamitic curse of Genesis was thier basis.

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These things I have had to wrestle with. Many blacks gave up the New Testament for Islam wrongly thinking that Islam was "the Black Man's Religion". They tought their children for years that Christianity was "the White Man's Religion". Of course Islam has a history of racially based slavery also. But many many of my friends wrote off the Gospel of Jesus as intrinsically "Anti - Black".

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I am responding to your posts because you do seem honest and genuine, while many here simply use devious semantics to deny everything - because they feel chocked to address the truth. I see christianity's saving only how they act with the Jews - it is their testing, if there is any credibility to all those tests mentioned in the OT. I see both christianity and islam falling in a heap if they continue their ways towards the small nation of Israel.The gospels does not transcend what was assured to Abraham or to factual history. If you curse falsely and unwarrentedly - the curse is returned in its appropriate time. This law is harkened by all true religions and true people, else there is no belief there.I see no christians marching against the vatican and the EU and UN, a greater requirement than the climate pollution and the ozone layer. This is the real pollution stalking humanity today. The vatican should cease demanding jerusalem be a universal city: this means the destruction of its Jewish sector by being overwhelmed by millions of Muslims who will purposely incline themselves this way, and the vatican is well aware of this fact.The vatican should return all Temple relics from its basement as the answer to Muslims chanting the temple was a myth - it is stolen property, and anyone assuming a blessing from that office now is wrong. The vatican must address who was the name palestinians applied to and correct the false world mindset now held, and that a deathly 3-state in Palestine is hardly a just 2-state for peace. The Vatican should expose Briton for corrupting its pledge of a 2-state, twice now, and take Jordan to task for violating the only condition of its creation. The vatican must cleanse the world of all the antisemitic diatribe pervasive in the islamic world today: these stories of blood libels and protocols, now seen across the muslim media and TV dished out as muslim truths - came from the vatican's backyard. It has a responsibility to address them, and foster truth, not diplomacy. I was amazed the Pope never raised the issue of the worst form of Islamic insults to Jews throughout their media for decades, while responding with apologia over innocent satirical cartoons! I am amazed that so-called good muslims never confronted their Regimes and clerics of it, and went on to murder nuns instead. I just don't get it - it is chaos and insanity, not religion. If Islam wants no one to insult its religion, it must be the first to negate this syndrome in its midst! Regardless that Europe was silent of it. But there is the doctrine of infidels and disbelievers here - so anything goes. Specially when it is condoned by silence and indifference from Europe.

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So while you have your historical demons to wrestle with, I have had mine also.

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Your historical demon is not addressing any of israel's rights. This is not just a theological issue, but also an historical one:'JEWS BELONG IN PALESTINE BY THEIR RIGHTS, NOT THEIR SUFFERINGS' - Churchill.As you can see, the God of Israel made sure this is not just a religious issue: the EU, UN and islamc League is also flaunting historical facts, their own UN laws which re-established Israel, their follow up law which corrupted the Balfour and carved out 80% of Palestine for Jordan [the 2-state!], and now accusing jews of judicising their own motherland with the term OCCUPATION. These are great crimes of those offices. Screaming IN JC or ALLAH AKBAR won't fix it. The problem is, these two religions have alligned their core beliefs on israel's negation, mirroring what occured in Canaan when the israelites returned from Egypt: they chanted, 'COME CURSE ME ISRAEL' - when they knew that the Israelites were 100% Canaanites and had a right to return and live peacably in canaan as before. Today, christianity and islam are doing the same, with 20/20 vision how this land was stolen by those now chanting DEATH TO ISRAEL! DEATH TO THE JEWS! But when Jews and Israel is no more, you guys will have to face each other, while you only prevail while Israel is the scapegoat. And only you can fix your own - better than waiting for a mysterious force to bring it on.Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

IamJoseph,Your rants are beginning to lose me. I am no longer reading your posts carefully. I'm glancing over them quickly to look for biblical points and points of interpretation of Scriptures.If you want to keep engaging me in discussion you're going to have to come back to "Bible Study". Otherwise you are wasting your time (as far as you're wanting my attention is concerned).I got more out of your posts which were involved with examination of Scripture.I'll be looking for posters who want to talk about Bible Study.
Just to let you know.So, I guess we've run the course here.Best wishes.jw
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Hate to have to do this again. Where is this quote from? I cannot find it with any on-line search engine and can find nothing of the sort in the book "Churchill and the Jews: A Lifelong Friendship" by Martin Gilbert, which is where such a quote should be I would think.Did you invent another quote in the 'spirit' of what you believed they said? Or is this from another source?

The truth will set you free - but you must first acknowledge it, instead of calling it as rants. It is upto the christians to cleanse the islamic world from medevial Christian lies. Why is that a rant?

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Hate to have to do this again. Where is this quote from? I cannot find it with any on-line search engine and can find nothing of the sort in the book "Churchill and the Jews: A Lifelong Friendship" by Martin Gilbert, which is where such a quote should be I would think.

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Did you invent another quote in the 'spirit' of what you believed they said? Or is this from another source?

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There has been no quote by me which was not correct or unproven in this forum. This is what I mean - there is no acknowledgement. The Churchill quote is also correct, as was that of the Pope.

This one is, as you have not presented a citation and I can't find it either, through the internet or specialized library databases. I feel that a quote of this magnitude from someone a famous as Churchill would have most likely showed up somewhere. It seems to me that most everyone else on this forum is willing to provide sources when asked. You are the only one demanding special rights to quote without ever providing a citation.Are you asserting that you and you alone are 'above the rules?'

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Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis BaconThe more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

but you said: That is not a quote. For that matter you previously denied having made a quote: Based upon your previous posts regarding this issue its likely safe to conclude that your Churchill quote is in fact not a quote. The Pope Quote by your own admission is not a quote.

Oh, I see. So apparently IAJ is presenting things in semi-quotation marks as though they were quotes to be deceptive and maintain plausible (at least to him) deniability.Thanks for clearing that up.

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Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis BaconThe more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

but you said:

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Message 109 writes:
Yes, I originally called it WW11 Pope, but there is no editorial - these are in 'brackets' and claimed as explanatory input, because the relevent extract requires this explanation.

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That is not a quote. For that matter you previously denied having made a quote:

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It was not an exact quote, nor did I use the word quote. The primary factor there was my statement was accurate in describing the Pope's remark. What next - a spelling error? The issue is, I was wrongfully accused of making up that remark, and I still see this charade continueing.One does not have to include links for every sentence, nor does one have the right to demand this w/o good reason: there was no good reason demanding a link for the Pope - who have a history of antisemitism, nor of Churchill making those remarks. The fundamental factor cannot be ignored for a semantical invention.I will post the churchill link - to embarrasss the one who demanded this.

You want to take your heading of fraud back?

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"But there, at least, it was clear that the Jewish community was "in Palestine as of right and not on sufferance," as Winston Churchill underscored at the time. "

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So why won't the leaders of the Palestinian Authority acknowledge the obvious - that Israel is the Jewish state? The Jewish connection to Palestine is a matter not just of rich historical fact, but of international law. When the League of Nations entrusted Britain with the Mandate for Palestine in 1922, it expressly recognized "the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine" and the rightfulness of "reconstituting their national home in that country." By that point, Britain had already transferred 80 percent of historic Palestine to Arab rule - today's Muslim kingdom of Jordan. All that remained for a Jewish state was the residual 20 percent. But there, at least, it was clear that the Jewish community was "in Palestine as of right and not on sufferance," as Winston Churchill underscored at the time.
CAMERA Snapshots: Key Context in Jacoby's "Is Israel a Jewish State?"

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No, because you semi-quoted Churchill as stating verbatim:'JEWS BELONG IN PALESTINE BY THEIR RIGHTS, NOT THEIR SUFFERINGS' - Churchill.Your source states verbatim:

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But there, at least, it was clear that the Jewish community was "in Palestine as of right and not on sufferance," as Winston Churchill underscored at the time.

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Even if this was a direct quote instead of a paraphrase, it is both incomplete and not stating exactly the same concept.Notice the difference between "Jews belong in Palestine by their rights, not on sufferings" and "the Jewish community was 'in Palestine as of right, not on sufferance.'" The first implies support due to some universal rule concerning Jewish rights while the second implies allowing the Jewish community to remain in Palestine unmolested because it is the right thing to do, presumably based upon their long history of being in the area.'Belong' does not mean 'in.' What are 'rights' is not what is 'right.' What is 'suffering' is not 'sufferance.' Also, and perhaps most importantly, the 'Jewish community' already in Palestine is not the same as all Jews worldwide. Do you need a dictionary?You misquoted, and conflated two sentences with two different meanings. Whether this is done with intent to deceive is open to conjecture. Edited by anglagard, : clarity concerning the difference between Jew and Jewish community

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Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis BaconThe more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza