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Author Topic:   fulfilled prophecy - specific examples.
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 61 of 262 (440535)
12-13-2007 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Lithodid-Man
12-13-2007 11:56 AM


Re: I just cannot let this go...
quote:
Okay, now I understand. In other words, YOU MADE UP THE QUOTE.
No, I did not do that, and did not have to. It is well quoted numerously.
quote:
It supports your position, you believe the attitude was there, so you made up and cited something that didn't exist.
No, it supports the Pope's position - historically, and in W.W.11. The Pope opposes a Jewish state - when he should be the last man on earth to do so. As an historical witness, he cannot posit diplomacy or revisionist premises, nor should he use his religious beliefs to negate another peoples, religion or nation's rights. While millions of christians support the Pope as a great inspiration, admitting what is wrong should not become distorted. Today, both Europe and the Arabs are distorting truth and history - because they interpret their scriptures eronously, and the sole judge here. It is a cover for hiding wrongs of the past.
quote:
Also, it did not escape me that you were 'palming the pea' here.
If you refer to horrific and unGodly antisemitism, it is not palming off. While there is widespread support for the W.W.11 Pope is mostly praised in Israel, even a proposal to honor his memory being planned, I see this as a bogus deal if the Pope cannot acknowledge Israel's rights to a homeland and Capital - or that this was robbed by Europe: Rome - the Pope's namesake of Roman Catholicism. IMHO, the Pope bears false witness in each denial of a jewish state - which is a far more legit premise than any state in Europe or Arabia. My pursuit is for truthfulness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Lithodid-Man, posted 12-13-2007 11:56 AM Lithodid-Man has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by AdminNosy, posted 12-13-2007 4:06 PM IamJoseph has replied
 Message 91 by Lithodid-Man, posted 12-15-2007 3:03 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 62 of 262 (440539)
12-13-2007 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Nimrod
12-13-2007 3:51 PM


Re: Good Beginning
quote:
Jews had access to the Wailing Wall.
Jerusalem became a center of Judaism.
Care to show us some jewish archives as your evidence? That a mosque was dumped on the Jews' most holy site, now shamelessly referred to a Islam's 3rd holy site - with no mention of this being first the Jews' most holy site - can NEVER be conscrued as anything other than a most terrible attrocity. The same was done in India: if this was such a kindly deed, why did they destroy that Mosque?
Pack your mosque and elevated to Islamic sacred soil: Mohammed asked you to point to Mecca. The 3rd holy was later contrived to justify robbery and murder, then present it as a gift of Islam! Fact is, both the church and the muslims engaged in competing robbery, racism and mass murders - and both have a falsely contrived religious motive as a justificstion of their crimes. Today, the world is on edge solely because of these two forms of religious racism. Both cannot be right - each contradicts the other - the price fixed on your falsehoods.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Nimrod, posted 12-13-2007 3:51 PM Nimrod has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 63 of 262 (440540)
12-13-2007 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by IamJoseph
12-13-2007 3:55 PM


Quotes
No, I did not do that, and did not have to. It is well quoted numerously.
Then supply the exact quote and reference so it can be checked. You have lost what credibility you may have had around here. No one rational is going to take your word for anything any more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by IamJoseph, posted 12-13-2007 3:55 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by IamJoseph, posted 12-13-2007 4:16 PM AdminNosy has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 64 of 262 (440543)
12-13-2007 4:11 PM


quote:
Buzsaw-
Be aware that when Jesus spoke these words, the city of Jerusalem, though under the ultimate authority of Rome was occupied by Jews. Jesus said they would be dispersed among the nations corroborating many OT prophecies to include total desolation of the land but then an undetermined period of time out in the future would eventually come when Gentile occupation would end, clearly implying reoccupation of Jews to the city.
Lo and behold, in the 1967 Six Day Israel War, Jerusalem, including the Wailing Wall moved back into Jewish occupation for the first time since 70 AD when Titus of Rome destroyed the Temple and drove the Jews out to be scattered.
What was first presented in the OT - cannot be posited as a Jesus or Roman prophesy. Prophesy is only when one says something others did not. Precedent rules: at best, it can be posited as an OT prophesy, and 'repeated' by others. Else the OT becomes downgraded - falsely.

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 65 of 262 (440545)
12-13-2007 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by AdminNosy
12-13-2007 4:06 PM


Re: Quotes
I will, and I have to track the forum it is quoted and debated in. But there is no loss of credibility - I did post references directly related to the Pope's opposition to Israel [which is the same thing espoused by the quote], and of the historical Papal rejection of Israel for 2000 years. Its YOUR credibility which must be questioned here - which denies the blatant. Fact is, Jews need not have been barred to return - while being villified in Europe's ghettoes - and when Europe adopted a new religion {read, Godly position. Who's turning black to white here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by AdminNosy, posted 12-13-2007 4:06 PM AdminNosy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by AdminNosy, posted 12-13-2007 4:32 PM IamJoseph has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 66 of 262 (440550)
12-13-2007 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by IamJoseph
12-13-2007 4:16 PM


Suppy the quote!
You have a few hours to do so. Then you may just be suspended while you try to find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by IamJoseph, posted 12-13-2007 4:16 PM IamJoseph has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by PaulK, posted 12-13-2007 4:44 PM AdminNosy has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 67 of 262 (440554)
12-13-2007 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by AdminNosy
12-13-2007 4:32 PM


Re: Suppy the quote!
Google finds one reference. Here Guess who posted it, with absolutely no attribution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by AdminNosy, posted 12-13-2007 4:32 PM AdminNosy has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 68 of 262 (440574)
12-13-2007 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by jar
12-13-2007 10:02 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
They also point to an ambiguous assertion, and make the claim that Jesus was speaking of "his" resurrection as opposed to the physical temple building. They also include specific references from others that show the others understood Jesus to be speaking about the physical temple, but NO mention of Jesus saying "idiots, I'm speaking of my resurrection not your physical temple."
This is not an example of prophecy, but rather at best, post hoc rationalization.
If the reference to the temple being the physical body of Jesus is ambiguous to you then you should speak for yourself. It is not ambiguous to many readers of John's Gospel.
In the previous chapter (1:51) Jesus compared Himself to Bethel - the house of God (Gen. 28:16,17) in this saying:
"You shall see greater things than these. And He said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, You shall see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man." (John 1:50b,51)
In this saying Jacob's dream in Genesis 28 of the house of God - Bethel, with the angels of God ascending and descending upon a ladder. is compared to "the Son of Man". The symbolism is that the house of God is now the Son of Man. God dwells on the earth in the "house" of the Person and body of Jesus Christ the Son of Man.
So to go on in the next chapter and continue the theme that His body is the temple of His Father is perfectly harmonious with the previous teaching in John 1:51.
You should speak for yourself if something is ambiguous to YOU in the Bible. If the comparing Himself to Bethel the house of God (Genesis 28:10-22) was mysterious before His resurrection, it certainly was not afterwards. Surely God cannot be destroyed and His rising again confirmed that the Son of Man was somehow the dwelling place of the indestructible God.
Jesus taught that He was the dwelling place of His Father throughout that gospel.His resurrection, foretold by Himself, strengthened that testimony. So John in his prolog also says "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us." (1:14)
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 12-13-2007 10:02 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 12-13-2007 6:29 PM jaywill has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 69 of 262 (440576)
12-13-2007 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by jaywill
12-13-2007 6:17 PM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
jaywill writes:
If the reference to the temple being the physical body of Jesus is ambiguous to you then you should speak for yourself. It is not ambiguous to many readers of John's Gospel.
Actually if you read it and don't just pull stuff out of context, the passage from John 2 itself show the ambiguity and that it was after the fact that his followers made it into a prophecy.
John 2 writes:
18Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21But he spake of the temple of his body.
22When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
So not even Jesus followers saw it as prophecy until after the fact.
jaywill writes:
In the previous chapter Jesus compared Himself to Bethel - the house of God (Gen. 28:16,17) in this saying:
That is not prophecy. Get serious. It is at best an illusion to a familiar story.
The topic is on "fulfilled prophecy - specific examples".
Are you planing on presenting any for examination?

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by jaywill, posted 12-13-2007 6:17 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by jaywill, posted 12-13-2007 7:16 PM jar has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 70 of 262 (440582)
12-13-2007 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by PaulK
12-13-2007 8:27 AM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
According to the Gospels. Can we really trust the Gospels to accurately report what Jesus' enemies said ?
I think not. But then again according to Mark the accusations are false - so Jesus never said it...
Oh you think not? Why, is it because you don't think Jesus had any enemies?
You have in Mark hostility and an accusation. When people want to find fault with someone they usually lay hold of something the person did and exploit any possible negatives with it. We see politicians talking about who said what or did what years ago.
It is completely plausible that to do Jesus in they would exploit something that He said or close to it.
Another question to you. If John is going out of his way to unfairly villify the Jews how come John records Jesus teaching that a true Israelite is without guile in chapter 2?
"Jesus saw Nathaniel coming to Him and said, Behold, truly an Israelite, in whom is no guile." (John 1:47)
Attributing this saying to Jesus does square with John supposedly trying to make the Jews undisbuted villians of the world for opposing Jesus. Futhermore John records that Jesus taught that salvation was of the Jews. As He told the Samaritan woman in chapter 4:
"You worship that which you do not know; we worship that which we know, for salvation is of the Jews." (John 4:22)
I judge that John's record of accusations against Jesus were not of his prejudice. Rather it was his fair and balanced account of what happened. Jesus had enemies among the Jews. And Mark confirms that they seized upon some of His words to either twist them or present them in the worst possible light.
This is what some of them said:
"We heard Him say, I will destroy this temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands." (Mark 14:58)
This infuriated the chief priests and the elders as it was designed to do. Now this is what Jesus had said:
"Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." (John 2:19)
It was a prophecy which was fulfilled. He, the Son of Man, the reality of Bethel, the HUMAN house of God (Compare John 1:51 and Genesis 28:16,17) was crucified and rose from the dead on the third day.
What Mark records them saying I said was something LIKE what John recorded Him saying. I told you that didn't I?
Mark says that their accusations were not consistent with each other.
Now, should I believe that they made a false accusation and then latter the apostle John took that false accusation and modified it a little to pull the wool over everybody's eyes. He took a false accusation and gave it an air are authenticity in order to deceive you?
I think whatever conspiracy theory you come up with requires more of a blind leap of "faith" then what is written there in the NT.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 12-13-2007 8:27 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by PaulK, posted 12-14-2007 3:58 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 71 of 262 (440590)
12-13-2007 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by jar
12-13-2007 6:29 PM


Re: You can always doubt if you really want to.
Actually if you read it and don't just pull stuff out of context, the passage from John 2 itself show the ambiguity and that it was after the fact that his followers made it into a prophecy.
No they didn't jar. They remembered what Jesus had said and they believed. They understood the relevance of what He said after HE WAS DESTROYED (supposedly) and He miraculously rose from the dead on the third day.
In the previous chapter Jesus compared Himself to Bethel - the house of God (Gen. 28:16,17) in this saying:
That is not prophecy. Get serious. It is at best an illusion to a familiar story.
The topic is on "fulfilled prophecy - specific examples".
Are you planing on presenting any for examination?
"You will see ..." That's a prediction jar. That is prophecy because it most likely refers to the second coming of Christ. It has not been fulfilled entirely yet. It has been fulfilled in that the Son of Man was the dwelling place of the Divine uncreated God.
Some of the people were also impatient with Moses. When Pharoah did not give in on the first sign which Moses performed the people doubted Moses as a savior sent by God. Same with the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th plague.
So it took time for the total Exodus to be realized. God outworked His salvation not all at once but in stages.
So also with the Messiah Jesus. We shall see the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man. But He is Bethel the HUMAN house of God.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 12-13-2007 6:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 12-13-2007 7:27 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 72 of 262 (440592)
12-13-2007 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by jaywill
12-13-2007 7:16 PM


Making prophecy the Biblical Christian way.
No they didn't jar. They remembered what Jesus had said and they believed. They understood the relevance of what He said after HE WAS DESTROYED (supposedly) and He miraculously rose from the dead on the third day.
jaywill, unlike you, I actually posed the whole passage in Message 69 and highlighted the support for my position.
"You will see ..." That's a prediction jar. That is prophecy because it most likely refers to the second coming of Christ. It has not been fulfilled entirely yet. It has been fulfilled in that the Son of Man was the dwelling place of the Divine uncreated God.
Thank you for again supporting my position. Note that you say "most likely refers to the second coming of Christ." Talk about ambiguous. Even you cannot say what it means.
Some of the people were also impatient with Moses. When Pharoah did not give in on the first sign which Moses performed the people doubted Moses as a savior sent by God. Same with the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th plague.
Dance away again, change the subject, palm the pea, and as usual, pick an absolutely indefensible point as your support.
First, there is no evidence that the Exodus ever happened. Second, if you read the story you will find that the problem freeing the Hebrews in the tale is not the Pharaoh, but God. But again, no prophecy.
Do you have any examples of fulfilled prophecy?

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jaywill, posted 12-13-2007 7:16 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 73 of 262 (440593)
12-13-2007 7:30 PM


The Human House of God
We have here unbelief that Jesus refered to Himself as the destroyed and raised temple of God.
In chapter one Jesus use Jacob's vision of the house of God to speak about Himself as the Son of Man.
Think about it. The Son of Man is the House of God. This means that Jesus taught that God was incarnated as a man in Him.
Now, is this teaching of Jesus out of the blue? Is there ANYTHING in the Old Testament Hebrew Bible that speaks of God dwelling in a man to make that man His house?
Yes, there is in the prophet Isaiah 66:
"Thus says Jehovah, Heaven is my throne, And the earth is the footstool for My feet. Where then is the house that you will build for Me, and where is the place of My rest?
For all these things My had has made, And so all these things have come into being, declares Jehovah.
But to this kind of man will I look, to him who is poor And of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My word." (Isa. 66:1-2)
Here in the Hebrew Bible we have God asking where would His house be. Where will they build Him a house for His rest and for His dwelling.
Then He says "But to this kind of man will I look ...". That means for His house, for His dwelling place on the earth He will look rather to a kind of man. He wants to dwell in a kind of man. He wants to dwell in man to be His house.
This man is unique. It is the man Jesus who was born of the virgin Mary. He was God incarnated as a man. He is the Word become flesh Who tabernacled among us. He is the House of God - Bethel as He taught. And the Father delights to dwell in the Son of God Who is also the Son of Man.
If they destroy this house He will raise it up in three days. Now if you will excuse me, I have to say Praise the Lord.

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by jar, posted 12-13-2007 7:33 PM jaywill has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 74 of 262 (440594)
12-13-2007 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by jaywill
12-13-2007 7:30 PM


The Human House of God is not the topic
The topic is "fulfilled prophecy - specific examples".
Is there any chance you will address the topic?

Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by jaywill, posted 12-13-2007 7:30 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by jaywill, posted 12-13-2007 7:39 PM jar has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 75 of 262 (440596)
12-13-2007 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by jar
12-13-2007 7:33 PM


Re: The Human House of God is not the topic
Any chance you'll admit that Jesus prophesied concerning Himself that if they destroyed Him He would be raised up again in three days?
Maybe you don't like that one because it wasn't in your handy dandy skeptical book of refuted prophecies?
I like to surprise people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by jar, posted 12-13-2007 7:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 12-13-2007 7:49 PM jaywill has replied

  
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