Degrees of Accountability and Unconditional Forgiveness.

i'm not concerned with agreeing. i'm concerned with the topic. your post was poorly aimed. you said one thing about punishment and quickly moved on. elaborate on this. is this only earthly judgement and punishment, or is there something eternal, or hereafter for these?btw. although this claim itself is tricky territory, i'm not discussing those who have abandoned the faith, i'm discussing those who consider themselves believers, if flawed.

You wanted a Bible study. My comments were on what the verses were saying. At the point of my post you hadn't provided any other scripture to discuss.We also have to remember the mindset or culture of the time and what was expected by the writers/speakers.In Romans 8:1 the word condemnation is "katakrima" which means damnatory sentence, which could be death or hell if you wish. Paul used the word two other times in Romans 5:16 and 5:18. It isn't used anywhere else in the NT.Remember the Kingdom of God was expected to happen within their lifetime and Paul was talking to Gentiles.Now the use of the word in Mark 12 does not have a damnatory meaning. It carries a meaning of punishment not necessarily death. The same goes for James 3 from Message 1IMO, what Paul is telling the Romans is that belief in Christ saves them from a death sentence.What the other verses are saying concerns punishment within the kingdom of God, but not a death sentence.Now going back to what I said in Message 11: So those who don't know or haven't been told that what they are doing is wrong and keep doing wrong won't be judged as harshly as those who know or have been told what they are doing is wrong and continue to do wrong.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

judged HOW? after death? before death? show me verses. you referenced purgatory earlier but there's no verse for that. so show me some bible.

The answer to your OP question concerning judgement and accountability is not a simple short answer question. This is a subject that theologians differ widely on involving some rather complex doctrinal issues like eternal security et al. Calvinists and Armenianists are quite at odds on this. It's comprehensive to the point that I saw the need to elaborate as I did in addressing it from my more Calvinist perspective.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

i am quite aware of this. but your discussion of how to become saved was the majority of your post and had nothing to do with my question. i want your opinion on this specific matter and nothing else. like all people and all theologies, i'll decide if i want to listen to you.

Your questions are answered in Message 11 and Message 17. I'm not supporting a teaching, I'm looking at the plain text that you provided in the OP and tried to show you the usage of the word condemnation.The verses are there. What question do you have about the verses?

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judged HOW? after death? before death?

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Message 17 What the other verses are saying concerns punishment within the kingdom of God, but not a death sentence.

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you referenced purgatory earlier but there's no verse for that. so show me some bible.

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Message 17 In Romans 8:1 the word condemnation is "katakrima" which means damnatory sentence, which could be death or hell if you wish. Paul used the word two other times in Romans 5:16 and 5:18. It isn't used anywhere else in the NT.Your question in the OP: What you are speaking of are things brought out in teachings. So you seem to want someone to reconcile the teaching with the Bible. I'm showing you what is in the Bible to help you understand what the OP verses were saying and how that relates to what Paul said about no condemnation for those in Christ.I've already given information that God doesn't say that forgiveness is unconditional.It is difficult to "reconcile" when you haven't provided any verses that supposedly support the teachings you have presented so far.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

According to the Bible one cannot become unaccountable for sin unless the sin is forgiven and justly cleansed by blood sacrifice. This all has to do with salvation as to whether it can be lost by sinning or if one cannot loose one's salvation. Some professing Christians here don't even think the sin problem needs to be a factor so long as one does the best they can. Others think any god/messiah will fit the ticket. Others think one can be held unaccountable so long as sin is confessed to a human priest or one is confirmed et al. This all has to do with accountability doesn't it?The works/grace question comes to play here also as to how far grace goes in one's accountability in the judgement and how one can have that grace applied via salvation.In science we are continually advised that one must apply the math et al for understanding. Well this matter is somewhat similar in that you can't understand Biblical accountability in judgement without applying all the Biblical principles and doctrines pertaining to accountability/judgement. Without them one can pretty much pick and choose as to what fits their liking so as to declare themselves unaccountable.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

After death according to Hebrews 9:27 where it says all are appointed once to die but after death the judgement. The context of that verse has to do with the need for blood sacrifice which is applied via salvation/believing in and receiving the atonement the savior offers.In Romans 10 it tells how one must call on Christ for salvation and it goes on in that context to ask the question of how they can call without a preacher to tell/warn them et al. This is why missionaries risk their lives in remote jungles and forbidden areas to reach the "lost." "How shall they hear without a preacher?"This all implies some accountability both for the preacher and for the ignorant who've never heard. Why should one risk one's life to preach as the apostles did if the lost could remain unaccountable without a preacher. After all, if it were possible to be held unaccountable without a preacher why preach? By preaching, one would be then pronouncing damnation on the ones who heard and rejected whereas without the preaching they would be unaccountable without a preacher/messenger.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

we're not talking about those who heard and rejected, though. we're talking about those who heard, accepted, and screwed up.

well. we can't go around understanding biblical principles can we? because that would require the knowledge that the old testament says that the whole blood sacrifice thing was something that man begged god to be able to give. it was never something demanded by god.

Hi brennakimi,
This is my opinion, i dont know if it helps as I dont quite get your question for the reason that i am not a native English speaker.Even the devils believe the existence of God..Not those who says "O Lord, O Lord" will be saved...Not those who prophesy, heal.....in the name of Jesus Christ will be saved...(hope that I recall correctly about those verses)Which says the problem is in your definition of "Faith". At the same time it says our Lord is the person who knows exactly what Faith is, not us humans can define specifically in terms of Law.That drives the need for our continous working to keep building and strengthening our Faith till through our relationship with Him that we know we will be saved by *Faith* (better get baptised which is an underwitnessed testimony). Work and Baptism are thus commands from our Lord Jesus Christ.So the judgement will become how your Faith (and Repent) will be presented (by work and baptism etc). Will you be able to tell the difference between your Faith and those devils' who "believe the existence of God"? Without work perhaps you cant, our Lord won't judge wrongly though. You won't be able to defend yourself that's the point.Faith without work is dead..Your faith may go astray to that extent, that marks a reference to an extreme that you might go, without working that is. So keep working in order to keep strengthening your Faith whenever possible. But I bet it's difficult to lose your salvation once you know that you'll be saved (OSAS of second born Christians).Somehow if you'll be able to pass the judgement, your sins will be forgiven. Whether your sins are forgiven or not, the same amount of ramsome was paid unconditionally before hand. Our Lord has already atoned for our sins long before the judgement day.I do believe that stricter rules are applied to those 'teachers' especially those 'proclaimed prophets'. Which means they need to keep more and stronger testimony when time comes. Or else the false prophets may whine about our Lord is unjust on the judgement day (just kidding, hehe...).That's about my opinions.God bless you.Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.

how was that a reply to the comment i made?it seems to me that if the christians are right, there's only one way to know god. and thus we can only know him by what he says about himself. making sure you don't cuss isn't going to make you know god better. my comment was that people who claim to understand god haven't really read the guide they claim teaches them about him. i am quite sure that god is forgiving through some method. but there lies the question, jesus was supposed to be the replacement sacrifice. but the old testament says that god didn't want an offering, but real faith and openness. the people demanded that they make animal sacrifices to assuage their guilt. so if jesus is the replacement sacrifice, his likewise can't have been required by god. what if it's that physical death that all of us experience that is what that verse is talking about "the wages of sin is death"? that would explain why when enoch was so intimate and open and trusting of god, he didn't die but was taken. i mean. if you believe it.it's important to demonstrate your faith, but i wonder whether we're stressing the right demonstrations. is having a six figure job and spending weekends yelling at fags demonstrating your faith? or is living daily depending on what the lord will bring you demonstrating your faith? is picketting against abortion or volunteering at a shelter for battered women? going to church and singing or researching human rights policy?i guess it all depends on who you think god is and what you think he demands.

Ah, if you said that you are in a crisis of faith, then someone can help.If your doubt is that all the Christians may be wrong about God, and all of them didn't read well. I dont think anyone can help.Christians hold their own beliefs, if you doubt about their faith could be wrong and would like to give advice to them, do as you please.Or perhaps I misunderstood your comments/question, then my apology.Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.

i am kind of having a crisis, but i doubt that anyone can help since it's what everyone tells me that has caused it.it's not so much that i'm concerned what others believe, but rather how they treat others and how what they believe makes them destroy the world.