Is a literal reading of the Bible an insult to its authors?

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I suspect that this reply may annoy you.

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Trust me you would have to work real hard to annoy me. I am here to engage in discussion. If I thought the subject matter was annoying, I wouldn't be here in the first place.

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I just demonstrated to you some of the reasoning for believing the claims of infallibility.

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But not simply or solely because it states it so in the Bible. But rather the supporting evidence of fulfilled prophecy of the long period of its composition lends credence to its claims to be of God.

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Seems to me that this is, in itself another form of circular reasoning. The only prophecies that can be pointed to and said to have been fulfilled are either 1.fulfilled in the bible itself 2.we are still waiting on 3. require some extrodinary suspension of reason and logic.
I don't say this to down play your personal relationship with God. I think that is one of the best things a person can have. (please note I mean any God, not just the God of Abraham) I just believe in taking what you read and what you are told with a grain of salt. The truth is never packaged up in a nice neat bow. Often it requires study, reflection and a critical mind. You have stated that through this process you have determined that you can stop re-examing your spiritual guide and take everything contained within it to be true. This is contrary to my nature however. There is always more that can be learned and many times you can learn more through disbelief than you can through the suspension of the same.

Why would he have to swallow him. I said he could accommodate a man.
A sperm whale has huge cavities in his head. The Hebrew word translated belly means inward parts. Belly is the fifth definition.
The Greek word comes from hollow.Since the fish was a special fish I see no problem. For the simple reason God did not set it up that way.
The Children of God will be judged first and rewarded accordingly to their works.The nations that remain at the end time will be judged second.Then the Great White Throne judgment. The Ninevites that Jesus said would be witnesses did exactly what they were told to do. They obeyed God and repented. Not only the Ninevites but all the OT saints come to the Father through Jesus. They just had to obey God's rules.Today man has to obey God's rules. It's just easier now. I am sure to you that is all that it is. I guess you missed Message 103 where I quoted ICor. 2:14.To have the Holy Spirit to lead you in all truth is great. Not being born again keeps you from seeing the truth of the evidence.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Had they eaten of the tree of life they would have never died.
They would have lived in heaven with their sins. But that creates a big problem as God can not have sin in His presence.It had nothing to do with them living forever. That was settled when God made man in His image and likeness. He made him an eternal existence. They were going to exist in some form as matter and energy can not be destroyed. The only difference was the first man and woman were sinners God is not. Read it any way that suits you.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Jesus's parables make perfect sense to me. I don't see why all people don't understand them. Other than He said he was teaching in parables because some did not need to know what they said. You got some that is a lie. Trot it out. No where does Jesus use a man's name in a parable.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Great. I am happy to hear that. I don't intend to intentionally annoy any posters. That is most of the time, to be honest.I have been known to get provoked and react at times. He's still working on me.Now I just have to recall what we were talking about. Seems to be something about the claims of the Bible about the Bible and the belief of the Bible reader. For example, the Pharisees could refer to Micah chapter 5 and tell Herod where he should expect the Messiah to be born.Herod was not happy to learn that there was a "born ... king" in his domain. He asked the experts in the Scripture about it and they gave him the appropriate prophecy.The funny thing is that there is no record that any of them decided themselves to go and see the fulfillment. Which proves that just familiarity with prophecy may not lead to belief in Christ in a subjective way.The thing is that man has many reasons why not to believe God. It seems that he cannot exhaust them. His fallen mind is very rebellious. For this reason Christ taught His disciples:"Allow the little children to come to Me, and do not forbid them, for of such is the kingdom of God.

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Truly I say to you, Whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a little child shall by no means enter into it." (Luke 18:16,17)Believing in Christ is a matter of humbling ourselves. We should not be to wise in our own eyes. We should be trusting as children when it comes to the claims of Jesus Christ. I am not simply still waiting. I am allowing the Holy Spirit to work in me in the mean time to transform me. This is in preparation for the next age.It takes time for God to transform a person into the image of Christ. Those who receive Christ should redeem the time and use it wisely.Then when He does come we will be ready to go in with Him for the celebration of the wedding feast and participate in His coming millennial kingdom.So the wise among the believers are not just sitting around pouting and "still waiting". We are learning more and more to live in and by His invisible presence. Now it is my turn to say that you would have to work real hard to do that. Vica Versa. The real truth is the Person Himself. It is not just objective information."I am the way and the truth and the life"Touching the living Person of Christ, I assure you, is touching the truth. The truth is a living Person - Jesus. And Jesus embodies God the Father. And the Holy Spirit conveys this truth into a man or woman so that the truth then lives in them. And now it is my turn to say that if I didn't think study, reflection and a critical mind were needed for some aspects of "Bible Study" I would also would not attend to the Forum. Well, I did not come to the Bible initially in that attitude. With me it was a long process.The landmark beginning was probably receiving Christ the living Person into my heart. Then I read philosophy of religion for awhile. Then I grew frustrated because I really didn't have enough biblical backround to understand what was being said.I then prayed for help. And I had this kind of response within me. "Well, you were able to humble yourself to call on the name of the Lord Jesus. Why don't you also humble yourself and start to read the Bible?"Then I realized that my avoiding the Bible was a matter of pride. So since I had humbled myself to call on the name of Jesus I decided that maybe I should start to read the New Testament. That was the beginning of a great adventure in my life.Now I had only read the NT. I had many questions particularly about origins which I had to answer. So with a huge filter of modern thought and modern indoctrination, I started to read the Old Testament.At this point some commentaries helped. Probably the one which helped the most was G.H. Pember's "Earth's Earliest Ages". The first half of the book was the most sensible exposition of Genesis 1 through 6 I had seen.I think aside from this I eventually adopted the attitude that if Christ trusted it to be true than it must be reliable. Because the reliability and integrity of Jesus Christ was beyond question to me.All this does not mean that I have no questions or that there are no "unkowns" to me. I am saying that it is through the relationship of the living Person Jesus that I eventually decided that the rest of the Bible could be trusted. I think that with God it is a matter of Him giving you a little truth to see what you will do with it. Depending on how you respond then He will give you a little more.For example, He may just impress a reader with how he speaks crossly to his wife. That is all. When the reader says "That's right Lord. I do sin by speaking crossly with my wife. Please forgive me a sinner. Thankyou Lord Jesus." Based on the person's response to that light then God will grant more light.Now one may think that this has nothing to do with understanding the Bible. But it does. It does because the Bible is here to change us. The Bible is not about just providing us with some ojective information for our curiosity. It is about imparting something of God's Spirit and God's life into our life.This post will be a little successful if you can grasp one thing. You should come to the Bible with a willingness to be changed in your being from God.If you come with a predetermined attitude that you are not going to be changed, I don't care how critical and careful and scholarly you are. It is liable to harden you more.The Bible should soften your heart. We are sinners. We need Christ for forgiveness. Much more we need Christ to transform us into His image.Still not annoyed, I trust.Now I think that aside from believing in the fulfillment of certain prophesies there is this transformation. Noticing this inner transformation into His image and knowing that it is not from ourselves that this transformation coming, this further convinces the reader that she is on the right track to believe the Bible.The process of transformation by the Holy Spirit encourages me that this book must indeed be the word of God.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I think you missed the point Jaywill. You had brouht up that one reason you accept the fallidity of the bible is prophecy. To which I responded that any prophecies mentioned in the bible and belief in the bible because of such is circxular reasoning . The fact that all prophecys from the bible that can be said to have been fullfilled are fullfilled in the bible itself. You confirmed this with the prophecy of the messiah's lineage, being confirmed by an unsupported claim that he is from the house of David. This is hardly substantiated, the author has Joseph traveling all over the country side for a census that there is no record of. This is a perfect example of circular reasoning that I was talking about. If I read a book where a character has a vision of Nancy Drew solving a mystery and then 10 chapters later she solves the mystery. That is hardly proof that the book is accurate and historically reliable. I won't reitterate the other to points on prophecy since you ellected to just hand wave them away.

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Now I think that aside from believing in the fulfillment of certain prophesies there is this transformation. Noticing this inner transformation into His image and knowing that it is not from ourselves that this transformation coming, this further convinces the reader that she is on the right track to believe the Bible.

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Hardly evidence for accepting what you read from the bible as truth since the same attitude permeates throughout all religion. People who read the Bagavadgita experience the same transformation and enlightenment that readers of the bible experience.
The original point was that most followers of the bible gloss over parts that do not make since or obscure their definition of reality so that the bible can fit even if it is in stark contrast with facts. I believe that they do this because of a deap seated fear that if the bible is not accurate in every detail than it can not be accurate in any way, which to me is rediculous. Every religion contains grains of truth to them. Subjects that speak to the heart and humanity of it's followers. I believe that one of the original points in the OP was that, by structuring your cognetive skills and interpretation so that any examination of the bible is never in contrast with the bible itself. The readers misses out on ques from the author that lead us to a better understanding of the content of the message as opposed to the strict vallidity of the same. From reading through the posts in response on this thread from those who do interpret with a strict literal approach, it seems that this view is very much sopported. Edited by rueh, : Wrong name

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I think you missed the point Jaywill. You had brouht up that one reason you accept the fallidity of the bible is prophecy. To which I responded that any prophecies mentioned in the bible and belief in the bible because of such is circxular reasoning .
==============================================I don't think I understand you.In the example I used the Bible did not contain the book of Matthew yet because it had not been written. The Jews had the Old Testament. Now in the Scriptures that they had there were prophecies.One was this:"But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, So little to be among the thousands of Judah, From you there will come forth to Me He who is to be Ruler in Israel; And His goings forth are from ancient times, Form the days of eternity." (Micah 5:2)Now Jesus born in Bethlehem may not have yet manifested all of these characteristics in full yet. But He certainly gave us reason to believe we are on the right track to consider Him as the recipient of the prophecy.He spoke of His pre-existence before His birth and acted like it too.Perhaps you are thinking about "proof" in some kind of mathematical certainty. Your appeal to logical fallacy like circular reasoning sounds like you are in the realm of seeking proof with rigorous mathematical precision that Jesus is Lord.I think I have evidence to convince me that I am on the right track. And I don't yet see the problem with circular reasoning.Then again some philosophers say that any world view of any type involves circular reasoning. I suppose if true that would inclide a Christian world view as well as an agnostic or atheist one. As stated the Bible part of Matthew had not yet been written when the prophecy was at least appearing to have a solid candidate for its fulfullment.And since the theme of the prophecies is related to God's operation why should they not be kept track of in the book of God?Also Jesus of Nazareth belongs to history not just the Bible. I don't see why David traveling all over the countryside should prevent David from having a decendent through someone in his lineage, born in Bethlehem. I don't think a comparison between a Nancy Drew novel and the 66 books of the Bible covering a span of production of some 1,600 years and authored by 40 different and diverse authors compiled into a library, the Bible, is a good comparison. I don't think that Jesus is a religion at all. I think Jesus is a living Person.When I read something written in the Bible and I can identify with that in my subjective exprience I am encouraged that God of the Bible must be timeless and relevant to right now as well as to then.I don't no any Moslems who say they have met Mohammed. I don't think that Mohammed taught that they would. I don't even know many practitioners of Judaism who will confess that they know God in a personal way. Both Moslems and Orthodox Jews are likely to say that they know ABOUT God. But knowing about God and knowing God in a personal way are different.When I read this from John's gospel I can say "I have experienced that. I believe that I have experienced just this thing that is being described. I know that it is not from me. " I can identify with that very strongly. Now you may call it circular reasoning or hardly reliable or something else. But I can identify with being loved by God the Father and having Christ and God come into my being and making an abode with me.I certainly will have no regrets should I turn out to be wrong at the end of my life. It is the best possible life I could have lived believing in Christ.And if I had 100 lives to live I would not waste one of them as a non-believer in Christ. If you turn out to be right and Jesus is not the resurrected Son of God and Lord and Savior - I'll will have no regrets. I'd do it all over again without a second thought. It is the best possible life I could have lived believing in Jesus as Lord and Savior.However, I think you are not right and the Bible is trustworthy. There may be something in the Bagavadgita which is an element of truth. The Quran says that there is only one God. That much is true. And a Moslem may be overwhelmed by that portion of the truth, that there is one God.To the degree that there may be something of truth in other sacred writings I can understand that for others that portion has them captivated. I think unbelievers "gloss over" a lot of the Bible too. Sometimes the less they read it the more they consider themselves an expert on it.You have not presented to me a known fact yet that leads me to believe that the Bible is in error. I read some suspicious objections about the travels of David. I read some reasoning that this or that was hardly reliable. Those are your opinions. I don't think you have pointed to a known FACT which discourages me from believing I am on the right track.Of course some alledged "facts" are offered by skeptics. They are usually disputed and revealed to be opinions of things not undisputedly accepted as facts.And sometimes if they are agreed upon as facts they do not effect the major themes of the Bible and God's salvation.What is your strongest FACT to prove that I should not trust the Bible? You'll have to provide something more than skepticism about David's travels around the countryside making it impossible for Micah 5:2 to refer to Jesus. I already indicated that copyist errors are in the Bible.I think these copyist mistakes effect less than one or two percent of the overall message. The people who really care keep track of the variant readings of the thousands of extant copies of the New Testament. They have the discrepancies all arranged in tables and catalogued. I think it is a skeptics daydream that any one of these textural problems effects any major oft repeated tenet of the Christian faith. What are your most impressive FACTS which should lead me to not believe that Christ is the Son of God and Savior ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Bethlehem Ephrathah was a person. New American Standard Bible

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"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity." There has never been thousands of towns in Judah.

The chief priests and scribes in Herod's service seemed to have understood the significance of the phrase Bethlehem Ephrathah.Bethlehem was the answer they gave to Herod in response to these questions:"Where is He who has been born King of the Jews" (Matt. 2:2)and " .. where the Christ was to be born." (v. 4)

So how do you explain that Bethlehem Ephrathah was a clan, it says that right there in the Bible.Also, surely you agree that IF this is a reference to a town then there's the problem of there never being thousands of towns/cities/vilages in Judah.PLUS, Jesus never ruled Israel.And there are very good reasons to suspect that Jesus was not born in Bethlehem, the whole scenario surrounding the census is utterly ridiculous.Apart from the FACT that there was no census, the reasons given are just silly. Why on earth would Joseph have to travel to the place where David lived one thousand years earlier to register?Why would Mary, who must have been heavily pregnant, have to travel with him?Logically speaking, can you imagine everyone in the Roman Empire, stretching from Syria right over Europe all the way to Scotland, having to make their way to the birthplace of their ancestors? It would be utter chaos.It just isn't in the slightest bit believable.The author of Matthew believed that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem, he had to invent a way for Jesus to be born there, so he invents this census nonsense to make Jesus born in Bethlehem.So, we have many reasons to doubt that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, and the only reason to think that He was born there is the old circular reasoning again.Look at the facts. Jesus really could not have been the person mentined in Micah 5:2, nothing at all in the verse applies to Jesus, so why torture the text to make it fit. Why so many Christians come up with excuse after excuse to make OT verses apply to Jesus when they really don't?Do these huge problems never make you doubt the historicity of some Bible events, or do you ever stop to think that the authors of the Gospels try a wee bit too hard to make Jesus the Messiah, or are you not open to anything in the Bible being untrue?

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Now Jesus born in Bethlehem may not have yet manifested all of these characteristics in full yet. But He certainly gave us reason to believe we are on the right track to consider Him as the recipient of the prophecy.

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The fact that you are using one part of the bible to support another part is exactlty the circular reasoning that I am talking about. Just because Micha is written before Luke does not mean that credence can be lent to the vallidity of Luke. If the authors of the NT want to make sure that Jesus is preceived as the messiah, of course they are going to make sure that he fullfills OT prophecies.

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And since the theme of the prophecies is related to God's operation why should they not be kept track of in the book of God?

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Because any evidence to the contrary is going to be excluded from the same book.

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Also Jesus of Nazareth belongs to history not just the Bible.

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Care to provide some evidence other than the bible that jesus was or did what the bible claims.

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I don't see why David traveling all over the countryside should prevent David from having a decendent through someone in his lineage, born in Bethlehem

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I'm sorry that should read Joseph making a fake trip to Bethleham not David. My fault.

So if you use one of your posts to justify another then that is circular reasoning too? I think you're grasping at straws. I think you are imagining an elaborate conspiracy theory. Above I listed many candid points recorded in the New Testament which we well would expect the evangelists to avoid for a smoother propoganda. This list could be enlarged. It included:1.) Potentially embaressing rumors about Jesus.2.) Difficult sayings of Jesus3.) Events which put the disciples in a bad light4.) Sayings of Jesus which seem to contradict the main themes of
the writers.I don't buy your suspicion of conspiracy. This criticism is nullified above where I included statements of Jesus which seem to contradict the major thesis of the gospel writers. The fact that they were included rather than hidden or excluded is evidence of candor and objective faithfulness to the facts even though they be problematic.For example. John says that the Word was God (John 1:1). John, however, does not exclude the potentially contradictory statement of Jesus that the disciples would know the Father - "the only true God" and Jesus Christ Whom He has sent.John therefore faithfully recorded problematic sayings of Jesus. This is evidence of his candidness and tends to falsify charges of false propoganda and conspiracy.And I gave many other examples and can provide more. You've probably been given other examples in the past. I know you have your ready made replies for them.Sometimes we posters don't like to go around in circles all the time. Perhaps you care to explain why Western histories calander is divided into BC and AD.Please don't tell me it is because some fishermen from Galilee all simultaneously had some hullucination.Have to go now. Will continue latterEdited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

All bread no meat.

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Potentially embaressing rumors about Jesus.

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2.) Difficult sayings of Jesus

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3.) Events which put the disciples in a bad light

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4.) Sayings of Jesus which seem to contradict the main themes of
the writers.

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I am sorry but I will try to address your previous posts later when I have more time.I am not trying to ignore your points but I do have to make this quick.

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So if you use one of your posts to justify another then that is circular reasoning too?

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there is quite a bit difference from circular logic and re-itteration.

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think you're grasping at straws. I think you are imagining an elaborate conspiracy theory

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No straws just illustrating that there is wiggel room in the texts.

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You've probably been given other examples in the past. I know you have your ready made replies for them.

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Don't assume so much. You know what can happen then.

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Perhaps you care to explain why Western histories calander is divided into BC and AD.

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Do I need really need to explain why that is a ridiculous statement? The appearence of a comet in the sky is hardly proof of anything. Care to explain, why is it that our calender probably is not accurate on exactly where the dividing line between 1B.C. and 1A.D is than?
You seem to infer the reasons to my posts without an real thought as to any point raised in the thread. That's ok, but just know I am not here to try and waylay you in any way I am just interested in honest conversation. Sorry to make a reply without actualy addressing anything I will post later when I have more time.

By your account they are all lies unless they are a recounting of historical fact. If they are stories then they are not true history and you said if it is not true history then it is a lie. So now you are saying that Jesus can impart truth by using fictional accounts, but that Jonah's tale must be a true historical account or Jesus is a liar? What is your support for this contention?BTW: Lazarus and the rich man...both Lazarus and Abraham are named.

BTW that is not a parable.You got any more?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."