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Author | Topic: Adverse Long-Term Effects of Artificial Selection | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5054 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
Not necessarily (aka snakes), as other snakes have colored tails and if you look very closely at scales without perfect rotund symmetry it is possible to think one sees a trend from the vetral to the lateral but if this reversed the shading contrast information of 2-D TO 3-D as was thought first for PINK Flamingoes AND was doing the same thing in the sound modulation fourerir analytic represenation of the same geometrically other predators might have that beyond the lack of earholes embryologically IF one ALSO looked at the rattle as but scales FURTHER DEVELOPED beyond Scanning Electron Views of intra scale morphic variation varietizations so even if one GOT NEW RATTLES without neotony being destiny I see too many other possiblilties for the relation of the melanin pattern relation TO the scale no matter how you scale this into geological time. It is possible to develop a better intution of squamates but Kraig Adler REFUSED to permit even a preliminary invetigation into any such correlation so the lizards won out in the attempt to sign the relation of the photon to the electron in today's modern herp research so far. My guess is that these would THEN be human baby rattles only.
Snake survival is not unthinkable. I caught one having lunch on a frog once. It was very vunerable to birds of prey at that moment being both visible and extremely slow moving.
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
quote: OK, just call it "human influenced selection". It doesn't matter if you consider such natural of artificial. Moose
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pink sasquatch Member (Idle past 6044 days) Posts: 1567 Joined: |
Hello Tusko,
tusko writes: I can see the distinction you are drawing between my pig-breeding and my rattlesnakes......don't you think that if we weren't around, that rattlesnake populations might be at an advantage if they did have rattles again? Not to state the obvious, but we are around and we are part of the environment - my point being that humans shouldn't be seen as 'separate' of ecology somehow... I think the distinction between natural and artificial selection should be in part whether the environment the organism lives in is artificial (a petri dish with antibiotic; or pigs in a pen) or natural (a human taking antibiotics; or snakes on a ranch). Even this definition tends to get a bit fuzzy, since one could argue that the addition of antibiotics to a host flips it to an artificial environment - perhaps Moose's designation of human-induced selection is indeed better terminology. Or perhaps environment should not be the sole determinate, and human behavior should be considered: The examples I'm turning over in my mind are hunting/fishing related. Humans tend to preferentially hunt the largest, strongest animals, often for reason of obtaining a trophy, rather than feeding oneself. [When hunting game, isn't it more 'natural' to take down weak or available game for efficiency's sake?] As a result, overall size and rack size has decreased over time in hunted populations of game animals; similarly body size at reproductive maturity has been reduced in some heavily fished populations. Hunting:
Nature. 2003 Dec 11;426(6967):655-8. Undesirable evolutionary consequences of trophy hunting. Coltman DW, O'Donoghue P, Jorgenson JT, Hogg JT, Strobeck C, Festa-Bianchet M. Department of Animal and Plant Sciences, University of Sheffield, Sheffield S10 2TN, UK. d.coltman@sheffield.ac.uk Phenotype-based selective harvests, including trophy hunting, can have important implications for sustainable wildlife management if they target heritable traits. Here we show that in an evolutionary response to sport hunting of bighorn trophy rams (Ovis canadensis) body weight and horn size have declined significantly over time. We used quantitative genetic analyses, based on a partly genetically reconstructed pedigree from a 30-year study of a wild population in which trophy hunting targeted rams with rapidly growing horns, to explore the evolutionary response to hunter selection on ram weight and horn size. Both traits were highly heritable, and trophy-harvested rams were of significantly higher genetic 'breeding value' for weight and horn size than rams that were not harvested. Rams of high breeding value were also shot at an early age, and thus did not achieve high reproductive success. Declines in mean breeding values for weight and horn size therefore occurred in response to unrestricted trophy hunting, resulting in the production of smaller-horned, lighter rams, and fewer trophies. PMID: 14668862 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Fishing:
Nature. 2004 Apr 29;428(6986):932-5. Comment in: Nature. 2004 Apr 29;428(6986):899-900. Maturation trends indicative of rapid evolution preceded the collapse of northern cod. Olsen EM, Heino M, Lilly GR, Morgan MJ, Brattey J, Ernande B, Dieckmann U. Adaptive Dynamics Network, International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis, A-2361 Laxenburg, Austria. espeom@bio.uio.no Northern cod, comprising populations of Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua) off southern Labrador and eastern Newfoundland, supported major fisheries for hundreds of years. But in the late 1980s and early 1990s, northern cod underwent one of the worst collapses in the history of fisheries. The Canadian government closed the directed fishing for northern cod in July 1992, but even after a decade-long offshore moratorium, population sizes remain historically low. Here we show that, up until the moratorium, the life history of northern cod continually shifted towards maturation at earlier ages and smaller sizes. Because confounding effects of mortality changes and growth-mediated phenotypic plasticity are accounted for in our analyses, this finding strongly suggests fisheries-induced evolution of maturation patterns in the direction predicted by theory. We propose that fisheries managers could use the method described here as a tool to provide warning signals about changes in life history before more overt evidence of population decline becomes manifest. PMID: 15118724 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] I believe it arguable whether these examples are cases of natural or artificial selection. My personal leaning is that the hunting-induced evolution of rams is artificial, since it was caused mostly by prey selection based on human aesthetic values, rather than for efficiency of gaining food. The fishing might be more of a natural selection scenario, since the net method used to get fish is designed for efficiency of getting food. Hopefully this doesn't seem like too much of a contradiction; one could argue that all human behavior is natural, but that would mean that no such thing as artificial selection exists, since the artifice is introduced by human behavior.
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Tusko Member (Idle past 123 days) Posts: 615 From: London, UK Joined: |
I'm totally with you on the issue of us being a part of the environment. We aren't seperate or excluded in any meaningful way, because we're just vertebrates, trying to make a living, like all the rest.
I think you hit the nail right on the head actually when you drew the distinction between the "natural" selection with the nets, and the "artificial" selection which we practice, on "aesthetic" grounds. Maybe an aesthetic sense is key to a lot of what distinguishes artificial selection from natural selection? After all, arbitrary, ever-changing, culturally specific ideas about aesthetics are a million miles away from the "bear neccessities of life".
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pink sasquatch Member (Idle past 6044 days) Posts: 1567 Joined: |
I think you hit the nail right on the head... Thanks a bunch, but the whole thing is just so damned fuzzy, and I am already doubting my previous statements... For example, aesthetic selection would seem 'unnatural', but how far apart are sexual selection (for ornate traits without other function), and aesthetic selection? Perhaps humans, as part of their 'nature', have a biological tendency to kill the strongest, largest animal in a population as a demonstration of personal power at the expense of efficiency... If that is the case, is trophy hunting 'unnatural'? I'm finding it difficult to define a boundary between natural and artificial selection...
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Tusko Member (Idle past 123 days) Posts: 615 From: London, UK Joined: |
Erm.. I know I've become a bit of a yes-person, but... yes. I think there is a real difficultly in saying whether something is artificial or natural... I'm going to have to dash now, but might be able to respond in more detail tomorrow...
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Tusko Member (Idle past 123 days) Posts: 615 From: London, UK Joined: |
There doesn't seem to be a neat dividing line between artificial and natural selection. Sometimes we exert a selective pressure on a species when we mean to, and sometimes we do it when we don't mean to. But even when we mean to, are we just doing it because we have been selected to do so, and not because its truly arbitrary? My head hurts.
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jt Member (Idle past 5618 days) Posts: 239 From: Upper Portion, Left Coast, United States Joined: |
I'm finding it difficult to define a boundary between natural and artificial selection... In cases like this it is helpful to look up the definitions of the words involved. Artificial: "caused or produced by a human and esp. social or political agency." So any selective forces applied by humans are artificial. Natural: "Present in or produced by nature." If humans are considered a part of nature, any selective forces applied by humans are natural. That is why it is difficult to draw the line - there isn't one. Artificial selection is a subset of natural selection, not a different type. TTFN,JT
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