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Author Topic:   Does microevolution logically include macroevolution?
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 155 of 195 (247350)
09-29-2005 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Springer
09-29-2005 2:10 PM


Re: What evidence do you expect?
existence is evidenced by the fact that all known species of dogs are not any less canine than any other species
Hmm, you've nailed it on the head. Also, we know that all known species of mammal are not any less mammalian than any other species. And damningly (for evolution), all known species of primate are not any less primatary than any other species.
Or, perhaps, this is a natural conclusion from a hierarchical evolutionary process. All creatures which are born of the kingdom Animalia are equally animal. All creatures born of the phylum Chordata are equally notochordian, all from the subphylum of Vertebrata are equally vertebraic, all born organisms in the class Mammalia are no less and no more mammalian, all who are born in the order Carnivora are equally (no more no less) Carnivorae (not carnivorous, though most are), and those born from organisms in the Canidae family are all equally canine.
So these barriers do exist...but diversity increases to warrant more and more levels to this hierarchy. To quote a famous biologist:
Futuyma, D.J. in Evolutionary Biology writes:
...diversification comes about by speciation, which normally entails the gradual evolution of reproductive isolation among populations; and that these processes, continued for sufficiently long, give rise to changes of such great magnitude as to warrant the designation of higher taxonomic levels (genera, families, and so forth).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Springer, posted 09-29-2005 2:10 PM Springer has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 156 of 195 (247371)
09-29-2005 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Springer
09-29-2005 11:29 AM


Otter from a dog
I would like to see evidence that it's possible to breed an otter (or any other non-canine type) from a dog
Well, anything that is bred from a dog would have to be a canine, as I explained earlier, but an otter-like canine is perfectly possible:
Here is the first few characters of one protein (cytochrome b) for a domestic dog:
quote:
mtnirkthpl akivnnsfid lpapsnisaw wnfgsllgvc lilqiltglf lamhytsdta
Here is the same section for an otter, the differences are highlighted:
quote:
mtnirkthpl tkiinnsfid lpapsnisaw wnfgsllgic lilqiltglf lamhytsdtt
To make this doglike protien a little more otter like we just keep breeding until these differences come about...kill those that don't have the right differences and breed those that do.
There you go evidence that it is possible to breed dogs so they are more and more otter-like. Can you provide evidence that it is not possible?

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 Message 141 by Springer, posted 09-29-2005 11:29 AM Springer has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 176 of 195 (247809)
09-30-2005 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Springer
09-29-2005 9:28 PM


Otter dog again
First of all, the difference between an otter and a dog is not only one protein substituion.
Damn straight it isn't. Its a a big leap from that. I'm replying to this since it is response to my demonstration earlier Message 156 I did not say 'the difference between an otter and a dog is only one protein substituion' what I said was in response to your challenge in Message 141:
I would like to see evidence that it's possible to breed an otter (or any other non-canine type) from a dog
And I showed you how it was possible that a dog can become more otterlike. I showed how it was possible I then asked you present evidence that demonstrated that it is impossible. A good start would be to find the sequence of mutations that would be required that were impossible to achieve.
We know that ancestors can be rebred into existence (on a morphological side), so I guess the best way to breed an otter from a dog would be to start with a wolf, and breed that backwards to something morphologically like Tomarctus, and breed that morphologically back to Cynodictus. (images can be found on this page)
We are already getting quite close to an otterish shape...we just go back and back, and then start going forward towards the otter. It probably won't look exactly like an otter, unless we were being very strict in our selection, had millions of breeding animals and a lot of time on our hands (a small army of breeding experts will probably be needed).
I've shown you how it might be possible, can you show it is impossible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Springer, posted 09-29-2005 9:28 PM Springer has not replied

  
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