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Author Topic:   Isolation---by distance as well as barriers?
pandion
Member (Idle past 3027 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 10 of 16 (513561)
06-29-2009 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by CosmicChimp
06-29-2009 12:04 PM


Re: How Do You Counter Natural Selection?
CosmicChimp writes:
Can it be that you're attributing too much of an active roll to natural selection? It's not a thinking entity.
I think that you have misunderstood what was intended. I don't think that he was attributing any intent. I believe that he is saying that natural selection on the extremes of a widely distributed species will cause those sub-populations to diverge faster than "crossbreeding", i.e., gene flow between the sub-populations, can counter it. Thus, speciation can occur in a contiguous population.
Crossbreeding doesn't "counter it."
Of course not. Natural selection will always act to adapt the species to the environment. However, gene flow does prevent speciation.
Natural selection is more like the consequences of the circumstances facing organisms.
Differential reproductive success. That success is the result of heritable characters that are adaptive to the environment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by CosmicChimp, posted 06-29-2009 12:04 PM CosmicChimp has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by CosmicChimp, posted 06-30-2009 12:03 AM pandion has replied

  
pandion
Member (Idle past 3027 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 13 of 16 (513564)
06-30-2009 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Blue Jay
06-11-2009 8:59 AM


Bluejay writes:
...many species of fly and non-stinging wasp lay their eggs inside a host plant, and the larvae develop inside the host (these insects are called "parasitoids"). Some of these parasitoids may use multiple different host species. But, each plant will exert different selection pressures on the insect, so it's possible that those laying eggs in different plants will start to diverge.
What's worse than finding a worm in an apple? So everyone knows that apples sometimes have worms, actually the larvae of the apple maggot fly. The case is interesting because apples are not native to North America. They were cultivated from seeds brought from Europe. Thus, apple parasitoids didn't exist in North America. John Chapman (Johnny Appleseed) brought apple seeds from his native Massachusetts (where they had been cultivated from seeds brought from Europe) and planted apples in the Ohio River valley. He did that in the 1st half of the 19th century. He died in 1845. Shortly after that, in the 1850s, worms began to appear in apples. There are a couple of possibilities - special creation by a magical spirit, or the infestation of apples by a native species. The latter seems to be the case since the apple maggot fly is identical to the hawthorn maggot fly. There are several species of hawthorn in at least two genera that I know of in the family Rosaceae and the sub-family Maloideae that are all infested with the hawthorn maggot fly. The hawthorns, as well as the fly, are native to North America. As it happens, the apple is also in the Rosaceae family and the Maloideae sub-family. The problem for maggot flies is that they do not set fruit at the same time. They are separated by a period of weeks. But somehow, some poor female maggot fly was early/late (I'm not sure which) by enough time that the usual host species (the hawthorn) was not available, so it settled on an apple tree.
Studies have indicated that hawthorn maggot flies and apple maggot flies rarely, if ever, interbreed. Their reproduction is in sync with the time the various plants set fruit. Thus, they reach sexual maturity some weeks apart. Moreover, they just seem to prefer the host on which they were born.
There is also the pear maggot fly. Pears, like apples, are not native to North America, but they are in the same family and sub-family. Thus, they have also been infested by maggot flies. These various flies, even though they may inhabit the same territory, rarely interbreed. They prefer their particular host when there is a choice (established by experimentation) and their time of sexual maturity is in cycle with that host.
If these various parasitoids are not separate species, they are at the least obvious examples of incipient species. They are evidence of the fact that evolution happens, and in fact, that macroevolution happens or is in the process of happening.
The term for this, by the way, is sympatric specieation, i.e., the divergence of a single species into two (or more) species as events contingent on environmental opportunities.
But they are still maggot flies and but a single pair was aboard the ark with Noah.
Edited by pandion, : No reason given.

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 Message 4 by Blue Jay, posted 06-11-2009 8:59 AM Blue Jay has not replied

  
pandion
Member (Idle past 3027 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 14 of 16 (513567)
06-30-2009 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by CosmicChimp
06-30-2009 12:03 AM


Re: Mixing prevents clumping
CosmicChimp writes:
Nice post I agree with most of it.
Thanks.
I am mainly trying to counter the personification of Natural selection. All of these verbs keep getting attached to it that I just can't make myself accept no matter how hard I try over all these years. =)
Far be it from me to personify natural selection. We know that there is no intent or purpose to natural selection. Natural selection is the differential reproductive success of individuals that possess heritable characters that lend a survival advantage in a particular environment.
Even you say this tidbit in your above clarification of the other man's post:
quote:
Natural selection will always act to adapt the species to the environment.
Indeed. But it is a limit of the language and your understanding of my intent. Natural selection does "act," but that does not imply intent. We can't make up new words for each and every natural phenomenon. In science we use words that may also be used in common discourse. We assume that, in the discussion of science, the other party understands the "special case" meaning of terms. Certainly, this has not been the case in discussions with creationists who continue to insist that evolution is only a theory, while ignoring the fact that gravity, light, heliocentric solar system, etc. are too.
{ABE}Plus, I'm trying to find out whether or not InGodITrust believes that NS is a god or maybe even a devil, thinking entities he would presumably believe are capable of action.
I don't think so. I'm pretty sure that if InGodITrust is a theist, he does not consider NS to be either a god or a devil. Hopefully, he does not believe that natural processes are capable of intent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by CosmicChimp, posted 06-30-2009 12:03 AM CosmicChimp has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by CosmicChimp, posted 06-30-2009 1:20 AM pandion has not replied

  
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