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Author Topic:   Humans are losing.
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5893 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 33 of 58 (309234)
05-04-2006 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by EZscience
05-04-2006 5:43 PM


A VERY Interesting Conceptualization
You seem to view the human species as one large homogenate, whereas I see it more as a series of ecologically separate populations that have potentially very different fates, regardless of a little gene fow between them, hence my comments on effective population size. No, we are not separate species, but we are functionally separate societies in relatively separate ecosystems and hence our gene pools, even with some gene flow, are subject to locally specific differences in selective forces. I have spoken about some of these selective forces I think will affect these populations differentially. I am still waiting for you to identify the selective force you think is “selecting against our alleles.”
I find this an extremely interesting conceptualization. An ecological approach appeals to me on a number of different levels. I just never considered it in relation to H. sapiens. It may be off-topic for this thread, unfortunately. Would you be willing to open a new thread to expand on this? It could be endlessly fascinating.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by EZscience, posted 05-04-2006 5:43 PM EZscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by EZscience, posted 05-04-2006 10:13 PM Quetzal has replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5893 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 35 of 58 (309339)
05-05-2006 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by EZscience
05-04-2006 10:13 PM


Re: A VERY Interesting Conceptualization
Let he who is without fear of recompense cast the first stone...
Ya mean we have to be unemployed?
AbE: You realize, of course, that this could open a rather ugly can of worms ? I will particpate, of course, but I am not sure I want the responsibility of initiating...
I guess you're probably correct. I can see the discussion being characterized right out of the starting gate as being somehow "racist" and then deteriorating from there. Let me think about whether my intellectual curiosity (and courage...) is up to the task.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by EZscience, posted 05-04-2006 10:13 PM EZscience has replied

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 Message 36 by EZscience, posted 05-05-2006 10:22 AM Quetzal has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5893 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 55 of 58 (310483)
05-09-2006 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by EZscience
05-07-2006 5:02 PM


Re: Evolution of reduced fecundity happens
Brilliant! THAT'S the piece I was missing in this discussion. Your last paragraph sums things up nicely. (One of those "duh-oh" moments *smacks forehead*). Selection is local, not global. Allow me to modify your population growth equation a bit:
PG = rN[(K-N)/K]
Where population growth is restricted by the carrying capacity (K) of the local environment (r is effective growth rate or birth - death + immigration - emigration, N is current population). The term (K-N)/K represents the amount of carrying capacity remaining for population growth. When N approaches K, growth approaches zero.
What this implies is that high fecundity may ultimately be negative in terms of fitness for the population. IOW, density dependent factors limiting population growth in the developing world will likely become more and more critical until local K - N is zero. As K in the developing world is much lower than K in the developed world, it is conceivable (all other things being equal), that the fecundity issue that crash discusses may be self-limiting - which is disturbing from a moral standpoint. However, local economic development and technology may be able to reverse both trends - the former by reducing r, the latter by increasing K. Maybe we're not going to hell in a handbasket...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by EZscience, posted 05-07-2006 5:02 PM EZscience has replied

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