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Author Topic:   Is there evidence for macroevolution?
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 756 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 76 of 92 (105694)
05-05-2004 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Proboscis
05-05-2004 7:16 PM


Re: You didn't answer my question
but you can't go around telling me that creation science is religion, when Christianity itself is not a religion.
Off topic, I know, but what the ******* is this statement supposed to mean? I've seen this said, and I honestly have no idea what the intent is, if it's not rewriting all dictionaries, anyway.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 92 (105695)
05-05-2004 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Proboscis
05-05-2004 6:50 PM


Re: By amazing coincidence!
I am glad you enjoyed the site. It's not as out of date as you think it is; Dr. Theobald just updated it last summer. I recommend TalkOrigins in general because it is written not just to explain evolution, but to refute creationism
in particular, so the articles are written with that end in mind. Another good page on that site is a list of claims commonly made by creationists. It is worth checking out.
quote:
since everything points to the suggestion that archaeopteryx is a bird, that is only what it is.
I'll let the experts enlighten us as to the exact definition of "bird" and whether archaeopterix fits that definition. Here is what is important about archaeopterix: it was known, before Darwin, that birds and reptiles fit rather close together in the Linnaean classification. There are many morphological similarities, more that these groups share with other classes. When evolution was proposed, it was hypothesized that birds evolved from an ancestral reptile. Now, no one is saying that archaeopterix was an ancestor to birds. What people are saying is that, given the hypothesis that birds evolved from a reptile ancestor, there should have been many species that existed, long ago, that would, if found, show a transition from reptile to bird. Some of these intermediary species would give rise to several lineages, but these lineages would retain many of the "in between" characteristics that this intermediary species had, even while it evolved its own unique characteristics. The prediction is: if we are lucky, we should find the remains of species that show intermediary characteristics between reptiles and birds. There is no reason why, according to creationism, such fossils should exist, but it is a prediction of evolutionary theory. Sure enough, archaeopterix was found, and it does have intermediary characteristics. I really want to stress the "in-between" nature of archaeopterix: when the first specimen was found, people thought it was a dinosaur! No one recognized it as a bird. It was only when another specimen was found with preserved traces of feathers, and enough was preserved to see that it had wings, did people realize that it was a "bird". Based on the skeleton alone, people classified it as a dinosaur. This type of mistake is exactly what one would expect from evolution and the discovery of intermediary forms.
quote:
Amino acid sequences are far too complex for them to happen by chance.
I am assuming that you are talking about abiogenesis? You can argue all you want about abiogenesis, but the fact remains that there is ample evidence of evolution of species for the last half billion years, just from the fossil evidence. Just because we do not yet know how life first began, the entire fossil record cannot just be erased. The fossils are there, and they provide a very clear picture of the phylogenic tree that gave rise to today's species. Molecular biology has now pushed back the evolutionary record even further - we now have evidence that the major phyla diverged from a common ancestor about a billion years ago. The molecular biological evidence, which does not depend at all on the fossil evidence, gives the same nested heirarchical pattern to the species that the fossil record does. This evidence simply cannot be ignored even if we do not yet know the actual beginnings of life.
The probability arguement is a fallacy anyway; these arguments are usually based on false assumptions about the processes involved.
quote:
the diversity in life is far too complicated to come about by chance.
You are probably right about that. However, chance variations with natural selection (which is a more deterministic process) does adequately account for the present diversity of life.
quote:
First of all, how do you suppose that clams fossils were found way up in the mountains?
You are correct. With no other information, a flood is a good way to explain the clams on the mountain tops. However, we now have lots of other information. For instance, where did enough water come from to cover the mountains? People have proposed underground caverns, or vapor canopies, but these would violate known laws of physics without invoking miracles. Meanwhile, it is known that the continents move around - this movement has been measured - and that as continents slowly press together they can cause the crust to buckle - forming mountains. It is very consistent with modern science that the tops of mountains were under ancient seas, and then, as continents collide according to well established and well understood science, the mountains were pushed up.
quote:
Over 95 percent of the fossils in the fossil record are clams.
I suspect that this is false. At any rate what of it? Seeing what the necessary conditions for fossil formation are, I would expect that the majority of fossils would be sea life.
quote:
The Mt. St. Helens eruption formed rock layers, canyons, and fossils in less than 24 hours. Just think how much a world wide flood would effect the world! That would have accounted for nearly ALL the rock layers and fossils found today!
Unfortunately for creationism and flood geology, it is usually not too hard to figure out the processes that formed various strata. Most of the geologic strata show the signs of being formed from gradual processes that take time. There are, of course, strata that were formed catastrophically, very quickly, but these are easy to identify. There is no sign that there was a global flood 6000 years ago.
quote:
Almost all culures throughout the world have a world wide flood story.
This is false. It is true that many cultures have a flood story - floods are pretty impressive events, and can be quite devastating, and so it would not be surprising that many cultures would have a prominent flood story, sometimes several. But many of these are not about a global flood, and in most, people escaped not by building a boat but by running up mountains or climbing tall trees.
quote:
I STRONGLY suggest DrDino.com, icr.org and I would suggest Dr. Ken Ham's book, "Answers in Genesis."
"Dr Dino" is a joke, a very bad one. Ken Ham is a joke, but he is a funny one. I would not rely on these individuals for information, at least not with checking it first with mainstream science.
The website "AnswersInGenesis" is sometimes interesting, simply because it does, at times, take me more that 5 minutes to refute their arguments. But rarely more than 15 minutes.
I'm glad to see that you are taking an interest in this subject, especially that you are willing to read the evolutionists' arguments. I hope that you can read this information with an open mind. I used to be a creationist, and it was when I looked at the evidence with an open mind that I realized that creationism simply is not credible.

This message is a reply to:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 78 of 92 (105697)
05-05-2004 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Proboscis
05-05-2004 7:33 PM


Books
Generally, Proboscis, around here we discuss the issues with each other. If you think there are some compelling points that Ham as made you may open threads on them. You can quote some parts of what he has to say and support them with your own words.
Otherwise those who disagree with you can just say "See http://www.talkorgins.org" for everything. (I would, , suggest you browse that site).
Please take individual points that Ham has raised and propose topics on them.
And, as an aside, I might warn you to have a thick skin and don't pick more than one or two points at a time. You will be overwhelmed by the responses. Unfortunately Ham is one of the worst of the creationists pretending to be a scientist. You will find him very difficult to defend.

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Proboscis
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 92 (105700)
05-05-2004 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by JonF
05-05-2004 7:28 PM


First of all, you state all of that as a fact. You cannot prove that mountains came from the bottom of the ocean. No matter how much you wish you were, you were not there. As for amino acid sequences, what better explanation than that of a divine creator? A master mind behind all that there is. I have a basis for everything I believe, do you? Everything I believe is founded on the Bible, the word of God. If you have a problem with that book, then i suggest you find yourself a pastor, and not just any pastor, either. Find one who really loves Jesus. Then you will see how "nasty" creationists really believe. I have hope, and that hope keeps me going. Even if I'm wrong in my belief in God, (which I seriously doubt), I will have lived a good life, a better one than I would have without my faith. But if I'm right, then a lot of people will wish they had believed what I do. By the way I'm not talking to you jar, just so you know.

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 80 of 92 (105705)
05-05-2004 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Proboscis
05-05-2004 7:33 PM


You are absolutely right...
I don't take Genesis literally. Or even very figuratively.
There is simply way too much evidence available to anyone to seriously consider Genesis much more than a Creation Myth. So many things in Genesis are simply not supported by any of the observations we can make ourselfs. There is no indication of a great worldwide flood, even though there are clear indications of many other catastrophic events that happened millions of years before the supposed flood.
But remember, you can still be a Christian even if you don't take Genesis literally.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Proboscis, posted 05-05-2004 7:33 PM Proboscis has replied

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 92 (105707)
05-05-2004 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by JonF
05-05-2004 7:28 PM


Re: By amazing coincidence!
Some people define Aves to be the last common ancestor of present day birds and archaeopterix and all the descendents of this common ancestor. In other words, some people simply define birds to include archaeopterix. Archaeopterix is a bird because people decide whatever a bird is, it is going to include archaeopterix.
Edited to add:
Oops. I haven't read the website that JonF linked to in a while, and when I reread it this time I found:
Systematics Note (from Padian 1998): Systematists define the names of organisms by their ancestry, in this case birds (Aves) consist of Archaeopteryx plus living birds and all the descendants of their most recent common ancester.
So I added nothing new. Sorry.
This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 05-05-2004 07:07 PM

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Proboscis
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 92 (105708)
05-05-2004 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Coragyps
05-05-2004 7:33 PM


Religion
Just so you know everybody, THIS WILL BE MY LAST ENTRY TODAY. So you can talk amongst yourselves for a while. What I mean when I say, Christianity is not a religion is exactly what I said. It is a relationship with our awesome creator Jesus Christ. Christianity was first thought of as a religion when Constantien made it the official religion of the Bizentine Empire. Before that, only people who were willing to give their lives for their faith in Jesus were Christians. The only goal of being a Christian was to have fellowship with Jesus Christ, to talk with him and have a close relationship with him. Then when Constantien made Christianity the official "religion" of the Bizentine empire, that was when it was first thought of as religion. Being religious stinks! I have experienced that, but now i have found out what Christianity is, a relationship. I now have a relationship with Jesus. I am so much happier, I get depressed just thinking of how wrong I was then. Please receive this with an open heart. JESUS CHRIST LAID DOWN HIS LIFE FOR US. Now he has died as an atoning sacrifice for our sins so that we also may live and have eternal life with him forever. I beg you not to harden your hearts, although some of you will. Please consider this.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 83 of 92 (105709)
05-05-2004 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Proboscis
05-05-2004 7:44 PM


Okay, let's take one thing at a time.
Take mountains.
Well, as it happens, we most certainly see mountians being pushed up higher and higher. If you will check, there is ample evidence to show that the Sierras are growing as well as Everest. They are being pushed up as other plates are subducted under them. The eruption of Mt St Helen's that you mentioned earlier is a direct result of this mountain building process. The Pacific Plate that is being forced under the west coast (and that is also pushing the young mountains out there higher every year) was the source for the magma that led to the erruption.
We can see this, and I have seen this, on a much smaller scale. I lived in California during the San Fernando Earthquake. It shoved one part of my yard up nearly three feet above the other side and split the garage from the rest of the house.
But there is also the evidence that you mentioned. We can see that there are ancient sea beds at high altitudes. They got there by the earth being pushed up from underneath.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Proboscis
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 92 (105711)
05-05-2004 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by jar
05-05-2004 7:53 PM


I'm sorry this really will be my last entry
How then can you know what is literal and what is figurative? Do you just pick and choose what is true and what isn't? You can't dissect scripture like that and have a real relationship. Like if I go and steal something, that is a sin, right? So how do you know it's a sin? How do you know that it isn't meant to symbolize something? What basis do you have for anything you believe, if you don't take the Bible literally? This is what Dr. Ham says over and over, for those of you who wanted me to quote him. It's not exactly a quote 'cause I can't remember everything it said but it was something like what I just said. Please consider what I am saying jar. If the resurection isn't literal, then we are still in our sins. If we are still in our sins no hope is left! I am not judging you at all. Please try to understand. OK that really was my last one, so until later, grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,
Proboscis

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 92 (105720)
05-05-2004 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Proboscis
05-05-2004 8:09 PM


Re: I'm sorry this really will be my last entry
Great questions but that's slightly off topic. It's something I'd be happy to address in a different thread. Right now we are dealing with Evidence for Evolution, so let's stick to that.
Hang in, you're doing fine.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 756 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 86 of 92 (105726)
05-05-2004 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Proboscis
05-05-2004 8:09 PM


Re: I'm sorry this really will be my last entry
Do you just pick and choose what is true and what isn't?
You and Ham likely do the same - I doubt that either of you holds that the earth is immovable, as plainly stated about six places in the Bible. But this belongs in a different forum.

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5929 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 87 of 92 (105785)
05-05-2004 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Proboscis
05-05-2004 7:33 PM


Proboscis
I gave you a websie to go to earlier on and I would like to pique your interest in the level of help it has. Here is one link among hundreds. Page Not Found - The Skeptic Tank Here is an excerpt from it.
Therefore, with these definitions in mind; evolution:
1. is a fact,
2. is also a number of theories,
3. is Science,
4. is also scientific,
5. is naturalistic and purely mechanistic,
6. is falsifiable,
7. is testable,
8. is predictive,
9. has been observed;
9a. in the field
9b. in the laboratory,
10. has occurred in the past,
11. is still occurring,
12. will continue to occur in the future.
Further, we can also note that evolution:
13. is not atheistic (nor Communistic, Marxist, Leninist, Stalinist, etc.),
14. is not evil,
15. is not mandated by law to be taught in US public schools,
16. is not a cosmological theory (i.e., "it don't do origins"),
17. is not a religion nor Religion,
18. is not determined by popular opinion (as can be said of any science),
19. is not a socio-political program or paradigm,
20. is not dependent on the supernatural,
21. does not claim that "Man came from apes",
22. is not progress,
23. has not, will not and cannot be proven (as can be said of any science),
24. Is not random nor relies on 'blind chance',
25. does not violate the second law of thermodynamics,
26. Does not deny (a) God(s), and finally,
27. Falsifying evolution does not prove Creation.
From here it goes through each of the points to explain the actualities of what evolution really entails.
There is an individual section on Creationism[with links] at this site here. http://www.origins.tv/darwin/creationism.htm#Creationism
To give a greater idea of the scope of information available here is the Table of contents
Abiogenesis Cell Biology Essays Homework Aids Physics
Additions, Recent Chemistry Eugenics Human Origins Reference Aids
Anthropology Creationism Evolution Intermediates Science Journals
Biochemistry Current News Fossil Record Math Sociobiology
Biology Darwiniana Genetics Museums Taxonomy
Biotechnology Dict. / Encyclo. Geology Origins of Life Transitionals
Books Ecology Gouldiana Paleontology The Universe
Botany Education Health Photo Archives Zoology
I am sure you can find enormous quantities of information to allow you to see the evidence and the critisisms of both sides on the issues.

This message is a reply to:
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 498 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 88 of 92 (105790)
05-06-2004 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Proboscis
05-05-2004 7:44 PM


Proboscis writes:
You cannot prove that mountains came from the bottom of the ocean.
Then how do you explain the fact that we've found thousands and thousands of fossils of aquatic creatures on mountain tops?
I'm going to preemptively strike at you by saying the following. Don't try to use the Noah's flood thing. We've shown many times on these forums that the story doesn't hold when put through logic and scientific knowledge. Also, we've found fossils at different altitudes around the world. For one thing, if the flood was real, all the fossils that we've found should have been on the same altitude.

The Laminator

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MarkAustin
Member (Idle past 3836 days)
Posts: 122
From: London., UK
Joined: 05-23-2003


Message 89 of 92 (105845)
05-06-2004 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Proboscis
05-05-2004 7:44 PM


Proboscis wrote:
quote:
You cannot prove that mountains came from the bottom of the ocean.
But how else can rock at the top of mountains be made of deposits that can only be deposited in deep oceans.
See here
quote:
And the Summit Pyramid [of Everest] itself is comprised of a gray, sandy, limestone. It’s amazing to think that this, the highest point on Earth, was actually a deep seabed some 325 million years ago.

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Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 92 (105848)
05-06-2004 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by coffee_addict
05-06-2004 12:18 AM


Hi Lam
Lam writes:
For one thing, if the flood was real, all the fossils that we've found should have been on the same altitude.
Could you explain your reasoning here? I don't follow why this would be the case.
PE

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