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Author Topic:   Looking for the Super-Genome. -And it ain't found
Equinox
Member (Idle past 5160 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 28 of 66 (352409)
09-26-2006 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
09-24-2006 5:05 PM


Re: written in the Year 5767
Faith wrote:
quote:
Age you cannot know, you can only speculate based on certain physical facts. What are those facts?
. . . You cannot KNOW this, but only infer it from what are probably rather scanty facts. Please give all the kinds of evidence that were used to determine how long ago he lived.
. . . This is clearly quite complex interpretation of some simple physical facts.
. . . This is no doubt based on particular physical facts too. Please provide. It shouldn't be hard to give good evidence in this case.
. . . ..Yes, I read a discussion of this. Analysis of stomach contents. Not absolutely certain nevertheless, but likely.
quote:
His shoes were composite, soles of bear skin, uppers deerhide. They were insulated with grasses.
Now THAT is an actual fact for a change. I knew you had it in you! It could be more precisely stated of course -- "On his feet were found ... " etc. But I'll let you get away with that. A real fact! I'm SO happy.
Um, how is one a fact and one not? Based on physical evidence? Yes - all of them are based on physical evidence. Even the idea that his shoes were from bearskin is based on physical similarities between current bear skins and the shoe leather. Were those really grasses? They look like grasses, but we have to rely on physical evidence.
For the dating we have many pieces of physical evidence, not the least of which is the dendrochronologic confirmation. We discussed that a bit on the thread that spawned this one, and there seems to be no way around that date, unless we completely deny any logical process based on physical evidence. If we do that, then why believe that the civil war occurred, or that your grandfather was born? All we have in those cases are physical evidence. Even dates on paper are physical evidence.
If we are going to accept evidence and logic, then conclusions are arrived at - such as the contents of his last meal or the question of whether or not he wore shoes, and even the date arrived at by multiple pieces of evidence. If we aren’t going to use physical evidence, then we are living in a fantasy world and further discussion is pointless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 09-24-2006 5:05 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by NosyNed, posted 09-26-2006 2:04 PM Equinox has not replied
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Equinox
Member (Idle past 5160 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 53 of 66 (437000)
11-28-2007 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Hyroglyphx
11-28-2007 12:22 AM


Watch to see if this Creationist idea implodes in a few decades like so many others.
NJ wrote:
Who says there was a super-genome? Who made that claim?
(the discussion has partially answered this, but here is some more info)
The idea of a perfect super genome (PSG) followed by “degradation” after the fall is a late 20th century attempt by creationists to reconcile creationism with a raft of scientific evidence, such as speciation, the appearance of new traits in modern times, genetic disease, junk DNA, pseudogenes, and many more. The idea goes like this (but is altered if needed). First, 6,000 years ago, the created kinds had large, perfect, and super genomes, which included all of the “information” that would ever be contained in the genomes of any of their descendants. Then, starting at the fall, God allowed their genomes to degrade over time by mutation (note that these mutations can result in variations, and that these variations are heritable, however the variations must be considered “bad”, regardless of what they do).
This is invoked to explain all manner of phenomena like those mentioned above. Notably, the degradation is not linear, but can be precipitous within a few centuries after the fall, then very slow for millennia after, or whatever, as the creationist needs.
The PSG idea is very widespread - I’m a bit surprised that NJ or indeed any moderately read (not just well-read) creationist can be unaware of it. It’s proponents include most modern and large creationist groups, such as Answers in Genesis, Institute for Creation Research, Kent Hovind’s “Creation Science Evangelism”, Jehovah’s Witnesses, people like Wieland, Ham, Malone, and many more. In fact, I’m not aware of ANY large modern creationist movement or group (or even prominent individuat - perhaps Behe who admits our primate ancestors) that disputes it. Here are some quotes from modern creationists.
From Kent Hovind:
Creation predicts that although some life forms have degenerated and lost use of an original function, every part of an organism was designed to serve some useful primary or backup purpose.
http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=9
From ICR:
If B. anthracis becomes a pathogen after acquiring two plasmids, how did these plasmids and amazing biochemical pathway of the toxins originate? As a reminder to the reader, creationists endorse a model of creation degrading under the effects of sin. Therefore, we may rephrase the questions above: Could the plasmids and toxins have degraded from something benign or even beneficial?
The Institute for Creation Research
From AIG:
It is simply unbelievable that these turtles could remain unchanged for over 100 million years, given that information-degrading mutations are known to accumulate in living things, generation after generation (a consequence of the Curse of Genesis 3).
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/0418turtles.asp Another at http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v24/i1/fouling.asp
As with many other creationist claims, the PSG is at least somewhat testable, and case after case (such as Otzi), shows that it’s complete rubbish. I’ll list some of those cases in a subsequent post, which will be copied from our earlier discussion of the PSG.
Have a fun day everyone-
Equinox
Edited by Equinox, : added bold

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-28-2007 12:22 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Equinox
Member (Idle past 5160 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 54 of 66 (437002)
11-28-2007 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
09-24-2006 2:39 PM


Many more clear refutations of the perfect super genome (PSG)
Such a general degradation across genomes, including both human and animal life (not to mention other kingdoms), should be detectable.
The most obvious thing to test are direct samples of ancient vs current DNA. While DNA does generally decay quickly, we do have samples that have survived. Here are some:
1. Neanderthal DNA. We have some Neanderthal DNA. While a number of dating methods put Neanderthal DNA to between 40,000 and 100,000 years ago (depending on the sample), creationists usually claim that Neanderthals are normal h. sapiens who died in or before the flood. If so, then they are at least 4,500 years old. Using the creationist number, they had only 20 to 1500 years of degradation, compared to 6000 for humans today. Thus their genomes should have only a tiny fraction of psuedogenes and junk DNA. To try some numbers, we need to know how degraded we are today. I don’t know what a creationist would say, but from the claims of people like Faith, I think they would say a high number, since they feel we have degraded a lot since the fall (otherwise it’s a pretty wimpy force of sin and death). So lets say we have only 40% of our good genome left. If that’s the case, then we’ve degraded 60% in 6000 years. If the degradation is linear (again, big guess), then that’s 1% loss every century. So a Neanderthal genome should have around 0 to 15% degradation.
Such a huge difference would jump out to any geneticist looking at Neanderthal DNA. Since numerous studies have been done on Neanderthal DNA, It must not be there. The researcher couldn’t hide it since other people have seen Neanderthal DNA, and more importantly, they wouldn’t want to, since such a find would gain them instant fame. Even if someone were willing to hide data if it favored creationism, they still wouldn’t hid this since it can be interpreted other ways.
2. DNA from other ancient animals. We have a huge amount of insects in amber from what creationists would consider pre-flood times. The same math from above applies here, as well as the same logic.
3. Frequency of disease in the fossil record. Many diseases leave visible signs in bones. Diseases have been shown in fossils across the board, regardless of age. I don’t know that a quantified study of diseased fossil frequency has been done, but since a degradation from the fall until now should show a big difference, such a trend should stick out like a sore thumb, and I’m sure it would have been found if there.
4. Spina bifida in Neolithic England. The barrows around Stonehenge and similar Neolithic religious monuments are dated to around 2,000 to 5,000 years ago. Thus they should have around half of the degradation we have. Note that creationists generally agree with those dates, since we have roman and other records showing that refer to them as past civilizations. The bodies in the barrows have a high proportion of Spina Bifida (a birth defect). If there has been degradation since the fall, then ancient birth defects should be much lower, not much higher.
5. Human age at death over the millennia. We have human fossils all over the ancient time frame, and the age of a human fossil can be estimated from bone growth and bone changes. These fossils do not show that ancient people lived to anything near the ages in Genesis. Instead, they show a steady life expectancy, with variation from time to time due to things like food supply. Of course, one could argue that the bone changes that we use to determine age at death simply happened later, which could explain it, but would require that kids lived to, say, 50 years and were still kids, which seems difficult on the parents.
6. Wooly mammoth frozen bodies. It has been shown that sperm frozen in animals who have been frozen whole is still potent even after a few years. This work has encouraged people to think about using frozen mammoth sperm or eggs to breed or clone a mammoth. The DNA of mammoths has been compared to modern elephants to find differences. If the degradation hypothesis is true, then the mammoths would show little degradation , and the elephants a lot as per the math above. Such a difference would again stand out like a sore thumb. No such difference has been found.
7. Dendrochronology. Dendrochronolgy, as we know, is the method of counting tree rings to look at their growth in ancient times. Tree ring series go back 10,000 years in some places (I haven’t heard how creationists explain this - maybe a good new thread topic). (Also - what do creationists say about the flying sword mentioned in Genesis 3? Where did it go? Why can’t any skeptic just go and look at it?) Anyway, with better health, trees are known to grow more, giving wider rings. If there has been a general degradation, then it would be easy to see this in the tree ring series, which would show better health in the past, esp 6,000 years ago). They don’t show this however - they show the same amount of health (with variation) today, 100 years ago, 1000 years ago, 3,000 years ago, 6,000 years ago, 9,000 years ago, etc.
Well, 7 is the holy number according to the numerology soothsayers of the Bible, so I’ll stop there. Just a little thought brings more of them to mind (such as how long kings lived in Chinese records, which go back 4,000 years). In all of these cases, it is possible to test the predictions of the degradation hypothesis, and the predictions don’t match the data. Maybe a good way to explain this is to say that God reached in and altered each piece of this evidence to deceive those he’s already decide to burn in hell, just as “Paul” says he would in 2thes2:11?
That’s not even mentioning the huge amount of DNA that has been examined from Egyptian mummies that are thousands of years old, or from even more ancient people like the iceman.
The iceman is an interesting data point in this discussion. He’s from around 5350 years ago (date established by a variety of dating methods and confirmed by dendrochronology), putting him only about 650 years after Adam’s creation. Adam lived to 930. Thus, he could have known Adam - hell, he could BE Adam! If not, then he could easily be a son or grandson of Adam with the long lifespans reported in Genesis.
We’ve obtained DNA from the iceman, and studied it. If it had the proposed hypergenome, then that would have been obvious. It didn’t - it was like our genome. In fact, genetic problems such as the ones around today were identified in it. Note that for all of the human diversity to come from the (genetically) 5 people on the ark, then there must still have been hyper genomes at least in some significant way at the flood. The iceman died nearly 1000 years BEFORE the flood. If anyone should show a hypergenome, it should be the iceman. Yet his body (and his DNA) is in most respects much like ours.
There are undoubtedly dozens more that one more versed in the field than I can readily think of.
Oh yeah, there is also Cheddar man (9K ya).
Take care-
Equinox

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 09-24-2006 2:39 PM jar has not replied

  
Equinox
Member (Idle past 5160 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 56 of 66 (437560)
11-30-2007 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Hyroglyphx
11-28-2007 5:35 PM


Re: Origin of the 'super genome'
NJ wrote:
A few creationists, like Hovind, advanced the theory that everything prior to the Fall was in its purest state, which accounted for why people lived in to the several hundreds and why everything was bigger.
Um, did you read my post #53 in answer to your question? The super genome is obviously not some splinter idea - I’m hard pressed to find ANY major creationist group that refutes it, and many that support it, such as ICR and AIG. Your line above “a few creationists” sounds like it’s a small minority. That doesn’t appear to be the case to me. You may of course be right, but do you have anything to suggest that the PSG isn’t the dominant view of YECs today? Or did I mishear you, and you aren't saying that PSG supporters are a minority?
The only other large creationist group I could think of was CRS, and a quick search of their site shows that they support it too:
The Creator has created time, space, matter, and life at once in all their complexity, whereupon the universe degrades gradually and continuously according to the second principle of thermodynamics. This is Biblical creationism.
(in an extended article that uses this to show that mutation degrades the genome, never the reverse. The page you were looking for doesn't exist (404)
NJ wrote:
Besides, if our genome had less base pairs than it has currently, wouldn't that be absolutely catastrophic? We certainly wouldn't look like we do now, it seems to me.
Pardon my bluntness, but how did you come to this conclusion? The majority of our genome (like other genomes) is garbage - gibberish, sections that serve only to copy themselves like chain letters, and whatnot. Sure, useful roles have been found for a small percentage of what was first called “Junk DNA”, but huge amount of Junk DNA appear to really be junk. The statement above seems to ignore the past 20 years of genetics research. Am I missing something?
I suppose theoretically there could be some validity to that [the PSG], but currently there is nothing that would bring it out of anecdotal mode.
I agree, based on the evidence we have. But by saying that, aren’t you saying that the majority of creationists today are simply being silly (at best)?
Thanks, and have a fun day-
Equinox

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-28-2007 5:35 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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