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Author Topic:   Idealistic morphology
MartinV 
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Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 1 of 20 (411514)
07-21-2007 3:55 AM


Before 2nd WW German idealistic morphology had many prominent proponents. Nowadays the concept of idealistic morphology is obviously a forgotten theory of biological evolution. Neverthenless its basic concept of directed evolution live poorly on the verge of the scientific interest (John Davison PEH).
The basic concept of IM is that there are idealistic, non-darwinian forces behind the evolutionary process - "Zeitgeist" or "Typus" or "Urformen" (pre-existing formen). The main idea of the paleontologist Dacque is that human is final product of evolution. There are only idealistic, platonic "Formen" that underlie biological evolution. New types arouse suddenly and science doesn't have enough instruments to elucidate the process. The evolution is teleological process aimed for perfection and emergence of human. "Entelechie" of human is present from the beginning of the evolution and consequently human has no ancestors. It may be of interest that Leo Berg mentioned Dacque in his Nomogenesis - evolution directed by law. His concept is very similar of that of Dacque of development of a pre-existing Plan.
I would like to know if you have ever heard about German idealistic morphology and if there are any people here who could agree with directed process of evolution.
The interesting material about thinking and concepts of Naef, Dacque, Troll in German is here:
"Goethes langer Atem: Methodologische Ideologien
in der Deutschen Morphologie des 20. Jahrhunderts*".
http://www.evolutionsbiologen.de/goethesatem.pdf
The material summarizes the main ideas of German idealistic morphologists. Form developes by it's own inherent rules - consequently form precedes function. Similar as Dalai-Lama is reincarnation of Bodhisattva, but not his descendant, so according Goethe Being, creature is "Incarnation" of Type, but no way a step on evolutionary development. Paleontological types are "real" because they show up in paleontological research. But they are also "unreal" because they are only manifestation of "genuine" types. Underestanding of living phenomenons is possible only through combination of "intuitive research" with its platonic concept of "underestanding as recalling", by Troll as "underestanding as resonance". This is the main base of underestanding. Kant's analytical way of research presents itself in theory of Natural Selection and Genetics.
According Troll the processes in Nature are nowhere, and especially not in organic areas, necessity of pure chance, but the presentment of the world-reason.
Some materials could be found also on internet. Troll was a prominent botanist whose work was accepted world-wide.
[Wilhelm Troll (1897-1978). The tradition of idealistic morphology in the German botanical sciences of the 20th century]
PubMed
Edited by MartinV, : No reason given.
Edited by MartinV, : No reason given.
Edited by MartinV, : No reason given.
Edited by MartinV, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 14 by Equinox, posted 07-24-2007 12:19 PM MartinV has not replied

  
AdminNosy
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 20 (411559)
07-21-2007 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by MartinV
07-21-2007 3:55 AM


Almost Ready
I'd guess this goes in "Misc. Topics in C E".
The German is close to useless, I would guess. Translate it or remove it and the rest is an interesting question.

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MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5829 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 3 of 20 (411767)
07-22-2007 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNosy
07-21-2007 10:44 AM


Re: Almost Ready
Done.
It is really hard for me to translate it from German to English. It has more to do with philosophical thinking and German biologists had often solved problem of Goethes and Kant's approach to reality.

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AdminNosy
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Message 4 of 20 (411774)
07-22-2007 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by MartinV
07-22-2007 1:23 PM


Paraphrase then
Since you think it is relevant just paraphrase it. I know an exact translation can be tricky.

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MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5829 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 5 of 20 (411779)
07-22-2007 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by AdminNosy
07-22-2007 1:59 PM


Re: Paraphrase then
I don't think it is so important - I put it at the end as you may have noticed.

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AdminNosy
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Message 6 of 20 (411796)
07-22-2007 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by MartinV
07-22-2007 2:16 PM


The german
Take it out then. I'd be interested in seeing how much of my German I have left (not much I'm thinkin'). How about your write a little for me to practice on? Coffee house would be fine. Thanks.

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MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5829 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 7 of 20 (411882)
07-23-2007 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by AdminNosy
07-22-2007 3:51 PM


Re: The german
AdminNosy,
I suppose that my text has been arranged as you demanded. Is there still any problem?

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AdminNosy
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 8 of 20 (411889)
07-23-2007 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by MartinV
07-23-2007 12:54 AM


Re: The german
The German reference is useless to the overwhelming majority of your audience. Since you have left it in there I presume it has something important to say. I suggest that the important point made there will be lost if you leave it as is so supply a paraphrase of the important ideas which made you want to include that reference.
I don't see why that is hard to understand. Thanks.

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MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5829 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 9 of 20 (411979)
07-23-2007 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by AdminNosy
07-23-2007 2:12 AM


Re: The german
I wrote at the end of my post some ideas I picked up from the material as you have reccomended me.
I am looking forward to other reccomendation.

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AdminNosy
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Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 10 of 20 (411982)
07-23-2007 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by MartinV
07-23-2007 1:15 PM


ok, now where should I put it?
thanks for the clarifications

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MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5829 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 11 of 20 (411999)
07-23-2007 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by AdminNosy
07-23-2007 1:35 PM


Re: ok, now where should I put it?
It's up to you. But let me know - I participate only at Biological evolution. Because I mentioned Kant Brad McFall would probably like to comment it.

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AdminNosy
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Message 12 of 20 (412001)
07-23-2007 2:37 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 13 of 20 (412208)
07-24-2007 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by MartinV
07-21-2007 3:55 AM


I don't think this sort of approach is as forgotten as you believe. It certainly isn't a popular mainstream theory but it is a recognised one. The type of morphological platonism you describe nowadays goes under the sobriquet of 'Process structuralism', which is a far closer fit than Davison's PEH.
One current proponent of 'Process Structuralism' is Brian Goodwin who frames his approach as part of a lineage from Goethe and Wittgenstein by way of D'arcy Thomson. Richard Sternberg also describes himself as a process structuralist.
Rather than adhering strictly to platonic-ideals of form the process structuralists talk of underlying formal principles which govern the morphology of organisms, the difference is perhaps only the extent to which one seems to require a form of cartesian dualism while the other can still be framed in a materialist manner depending on what the basis of the formal principles or laws actually is.
TTFN,
WK

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Equinox
Member (Idle past 5142 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 14 of 20 (412333)
07-24-2007 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by MartinV
07-21-2007 3:55 AM


Another somewhat similar teleological approach
Another approach that comes at least somewhat close to the teleological idea of idealistic morphology (which hadn’t heard of before - thanks MartinV) is that expressed in the books “evolution’s arrow” by Stewart and “Nonzero” by Wright. Their view is that evolution is not as random as is sometimes expressed, due to the high probability that “higher” forms will, in fact, evolve simply because those are the developments that work the best.
Their claim (which I agree with) is that their view is in agreement with current evolutionary science, but that current science (such as Gould) has downplayed the view that evolution does lead to higher and more advanced creatures over time, and that it *has* to do so, because higher forms are simply better at utilizing energy and hence reproducing. They cite cases of convergent evolution, for instance, the eye has evolved at least a half dozen times, independently - hence it is reasonable to conclude that eyes will develop in the course of evolution. It’s not like there is some designer saying “I want eyes! Get to work!!”, but rather that evolution naturally produces higher and more complex forms, resulting in a direction in evolution to higher and higher forms over time, which starts to look awfully teleological.
Maybe this view is “semi-orthodox”? Anyway, two sites are listed here. I found Wright’s book an easier (indeed a fun) read. However, Stewart's book is available free online at the site below.
Nonzero
Evolution's Arrow
May the water quench your thirst-

-Equinox
_ _ _ ___ _ _ _
You know, it's probably already answered at An Index to Creationist Claims...
(Equinox is a Naturalistic Pagan -  Naturalistic Paganism Home)

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MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5829 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 15 of 20 (414080)
08-02-2007 4:22 PM


Theodor Eimer
Thank you from your posts. The theory of directed evolution, orthogenesis, had a long tradition in pre-war Germany. Many researchs and many observations had been done. Nowadays are most of them fully forgotten even if they are surprisingly interesting. I hit on this page from Hans Gadow where he describes Theodor Eimer's concept of "undulatory development". Probably one has to go to antiquarian bookshop to get such interesting reading. Especially noticeable is the last sentence about Eimer's law of posterior-anterior development which has obviously nothing to do with darwinism:
http://links.jstor.org/sici?...
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Shorten display form of link.

  
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