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Author Topic:   Transitional fossils not proof of evolution?
mark24
Member (Idle past 5223 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 5 of 223 (291595)
03-02-2006 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Alasdair
03-02-2006 12:55 PM


Alasdair,
Oooh, my favourite!
"If I pulled a fossil of a chimp from 5000 years ago and a compared it to the skull of a man I can make the conclusion that one came from the other because of similarities, but I would have no proof of that only an assumption based on a preconceived idea."
No, because that would ignore the fact that any analysis would place the skull in the chimp lineage. In fact, I doubt whether 5000 years would be enough to even place the skull as being an "archaic" chimpanzee.
Were we to imagine a scenario in which evolution didn't occur, then the null hypothesis that your opponent postulates would be that fossils would appear "in-sequence" on occasion, but the rule is that generally you can't make lineages out of the older to younger fossils. In fact, the correlation between cladistics (ordering & ranking of organisms into groups based on (in this case) morphological characters) & where they are found in the fossil record (stratigraphy) correlates to a statistically meaningful degree. In other words, the null hypothesis is falsified & the evolutionary hypothesis is supported.
Assessing Congruence Between Cladistic and Stratigraphic Data
Stratigraphic Consistency Index
"The SCI metric may also be summarized either as a mean value for each taxonomic group or as a proportion of cladograms that score SCI values of 0.500 or more, an indication that half, or more, of the branches are consistent with stratigraphic evidence. By both measures, fishes and echinoderms score better than tetrapods. Mean SCI values are: echinoderms (0.773), fishes (0.757), and tetrapods (0.701). Proportions of cladograms with SCI values $0.500 are tetrapods (100%), echinoderms (94%), and fishes (93%). For both measures, values for all three groups are indistinguishable according to binomial error bars (Fig. 3).
Within the sample of echinoderm cladograms, nonechinoids show somewhat better results than echinoids but not significantly so (Fig. 3). The mean SCI value for echinoids is 0.724, and for nonechinoids 0.849; moreover, 90%of echinoid cladograms have SCI values $ 0.500,compared with 100% for nonechinoids.
SCI values for fish groups are variable but not significantly different (Fig. 3). For mean SCI values, the order is as follows: sarcopterygians (0.904), teleosts (0.744), placoderms(0.741), agnathans (0.733), and actinopterygians (0.722). In all cases, all sampled cladograms show SCI values > 0.500. The rankings of tetrapod groups by both aspects of the SCI metric are comparable. Mean SCI values give this sequence: mammals (0.837), “mammallike reptiles” (0.729), lepidosauromorphs (0.714), dinosaurs (0.698), archosauromorphs (0.660), and turtles (0.586). The low value for turtles is significantly lower than the high values for synapsids, mammals, and “mammallike reptiles”. Proportions of cladograms with SCI values $ 0.500 give this sequence: mammals (100%), “mammallike reptiles” (100%), lepidosauromorphs (100%), turtles (100%), dinosaurs (86%), and archosauromorphs (78%)."
In conclusion, Benton's study shows that there is a clear correlation between the evolutionary trees & the stratigraphic location that the fossils are found in. In other words, cladistics shows a sequence of fossil morphologies as per evolutionary expectations that mere chance cannot explain. In even easier language, you can make lineages out of older to younger fossils, & this is in overall terms the order of the day.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Alasdair, posted 03-02-2006 12:55 PM Alasdair has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5223 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 35 of 223 (315825)
05-28-2006 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by mr_matrix
05-28-2006 6:22 PM


Re: Fossil Gaps
mr matrix,
The fossil record is full of gaps that invalidate evolution.
Like not having fingerprints of Joe Bloggs at the murder scene or on the murder weapon, but DNA, video, eyewitness etc. evidence that says he did commit the crime, means he can not have done it?
Quite a logical flaw you have there.
It's not potential evidence that is absent that is informative here, it is the evidence that does exist. Same with the fossil record.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by mr_matrix, posted 05-28-2006 6:22 PM mr_matrix has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5223 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 39 of 223 (315866)
05-29-2006 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Hyroglyphx
05-29-2006 12:51 AM


Re: Logical fallacies and evidence
nemesis,
I don't understand how you could interpret this as a logic fallacy.
Like I said to mr matrix. If you had a guy that was suspected of murder, & had DNA evidence against him, video evidence as well as multiple eyewitnesses, just because he didn't leave fingerprints on the murder weapon does not mean he couldn't have done it.
That's the fallacy, & your argument is of the same form.
From everyone's logical standpoint, we see a lack of evidence to support an assertion.
Everyone? Who?
From a logical standpoint, you are making an assertion without evidence.
Mark
Edited by mark24, : No reason given.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-29-2006 12:51 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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