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Author Topic:   Definition of Species
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Message 228 of 450 (614086)
05-01-2011 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Big_Al35
05-01-2011 3:22 PM


Topic Reminder
Unless you can show how what you learned from the program relates to the topic of this thread about the definition of species, I think you're off-topic. I was letting it go under the assumption that it would be a short diversion from the topic, but you seem to want to play 20 questions.

Please feel free to propose a new topic to discuss this over at Proposed New Topics.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Big_Al35, posted 05-01-2011 3:22 PM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

    
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Posts: 12631
From: EvC Forum
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Message 231 of 450 (614125)
05-02-2011 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Big_Al35
05-02-2011 6:49 AM


Re: Could you be more specific?
Hi Big_Al35,

If you have a topic you would like to discuss that isn't related to the definition of species then please propose it over at Proposed New Topics.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Big_Al35, posted 05-02-2011 6:49 AM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

    
Admin
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Posts: 12631
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 233 of 450 (614165)
05-02-2011 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Wounded King
05-02-2011 9:02 AM


Re: Could you be more specific?
Wounded King writes:

Just a quick aside to Percy:

This is actually veering back round to the original topic as what we were discussing previously was the distinction between morphospecies and genetic distance based species definitions. Specifically many of us were trying to make Big_Al understand both the arbitrary nature of species definitions and the disconnect between morphology and DNA which meant that morphologically identical species could be significantly divergent in their genomes. This then took us on to discussing morphological variability which was not genetically determined, something Big_Al appeared not to believe in.

Thanks for explaining how this relates to the topic. Carry on, everyone.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Wounded King, posted 05-02-2011 9:02 AM Wounded King has not yet responded

    
Admin
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Message 375 of 450 (625321)
07-22-2011 10:05 AM


Notice of Intention to Moderate
Hello everyone!

I'm going to recuse myself from discussion as Percy for a couple days, then beginning Monday morning I will take on a moderator role as Admin. I'll be looking for continuity in discussion, where lack of continuity is defined as lines of inquiry being suddenly initiated and equally suddenly abandoned. I'll also be making sure that discussion isn't wondering aimlessly but is focused on identifiable goals.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12631
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 408 of 450 (625696)
07-25-2011 6:10 AM


Moderator On Duty
As of this morning I am moderating this thread.

Some of the recent posts primarily address off-topic issues generally related to the creation/evolution debate. Please address the topic, which is about the definition of species.

Concerning the recent discussion about the SIGLEC13 gene, before discussion continues someone must explain how it is relevant to the topic.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

    
Admin
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Posts: 12631
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Joined: 06-14-2002


(1)
Message 415 of 450 (625723)
07-25-2011 10:06 AM


Moderator Advisory
I have my finger on the suspension trigger. Please, everyone, follow these specific requests:

  1. Keep discussion civil. Accusations that someone is lying are uncivil. In my experience people are almost always mistaken or misinformed and are honestly stating what they believe to be true.

  2. Address the topic, which is the definition of species. If Genesis includes a definition of species then someone needs to state this definition so that it may be discussed.

  3. This is a science thread, so arguments and evidence should be scientific. Religious arguments should not be used in this thread.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by Nuggin, posted 07-25-2011 10:55 AM Admin has responded

    
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Message 418 of 450 (625729)
07-25-2011 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by IamJoseph
07-25-2011 10:26 AM


Re: Bible
Hi IamJoseph,

This is a science thread. The Bible can provide the inspiration for your definition of species, but you cannot cite the Bible as evidence for your definition. In science threads evidence comes from the real world, not revelation.

Please do the following:

  1. Please provide a clear and concise statement of your definition of species.

  2. Please provide scientific evidence that "life was initiated in a dual gendered form."

  3. Please do not mention the Bible or Genesis again.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by IamJoseph, posted 07-25-2011 10:26 AM IamJoseph has not yet responded

    
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Message 419 of 450 (625731)
07-25-2011 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 417 by IamJoseph
07-25-2011 10:35 AM


IamJoseph Suspended 24 Hours
Fearandloathing stated in the very message you replied to that climate was off-topic in this thread and said he would provide a bump for you over at the Climate Change Delusion thread, which he did, yet you replied in this thread anyway.

See you tomorrow.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by IamJoseph, posted 07-25-2011 10:35 AM IamJoseph has not yet responded

    
Admin
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Message 422 of 450 (625735)
07-25-2011 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 421 by Nuggin
07-25-2011 10:55 AM


Re: Moderator Advisory
Nuggin writes:

Saying it's "uncivil" to call someone out on their tactics basically is telling the entire science side of the debate to go home.

I hope not many on the science side think that pasting derogatory labels on things proves anything or that motivation is relevant to whether a position is right or wrong. Motivation can be a short cut for detecting underhanded tactics, but it isn't evidence.

The science side should stick to the facts they claim support their position and negate the other side's position. The science side should focus on the support or lack thereof of a position and not on their perceived foibles of the person promoting the position.

Actually, that's good advice for both sides.

If you'd like to discuss creationist tactics then there's a couple appropriate threads still open:

Or you could propose a new thread over at Proposed New Topics, but leave your opinions about the other side out of this discussion because they're irrelevant and not science.

I'm not kidding myself that I can convince you your view is wrong, but perhaps I can convince you that I *will* enforce the Forum Guidelines as I see them, and I wrote them.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by Nuggin, posted 07-25-2011 10:55 AM Nuggin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Nuggin, posted 07-25-2011 11:41 AM Admin has responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12631
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 425 of 450 (625747)
07-25-2011 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by Nuggin
07-25-2011 11:41 AM


Re: Moderator Advisory
Nuggin writes:

I'm still waiting to see you delete some of Joseph's posts the way you delete mine.

We almost never delete messages here at EvC Forum. The only exception these days are the Dennis Markuze threads.

Your message isn't deleted, only hidden. If you like you can click the edit button, bring it into comformance with the Forum Guidelines, then unhide it.

I don't think you really want me to treat you the same way I treated IamJoseph. All I did was hide the text of one of your posts. IamJoseph I suspended.

Whatever faults IamJoseph had, incivility is not among them, and I find that incivility is the main cause of threads spiraling out of control as more and more participants begin engaging in a verbal fisticuffs contest of one-upmanship instead of discussing the topic. The Forum Guidelines request that participant try to maintain a dispassionate tone.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Nuggin, posted 07-25-2011 11:41 AM Nuggin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 426 by Nuggin, posted 07-25-2011 12:23 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

    
Admin
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Posts: 12631
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 431 of 450 (625873)
07-26-2011 5:55 AM


Moderator Comment (edited)
AbE: When I originally composed this message I confused this thread with the Why are there no human apes alive today? thread. I have corrected this error. --Admin

Mazzy has done an excellent job describing the creationist position on kinds, but most notably she makes this comment about species:

Mazzy writes:

I think the definition of species is going to be problematic for some time to come.

Nuggin posted an equally excellent reply noting that Mazzy has come to the precise same conclusion as science. The real world is a messy place and resists the human need to place things in neat categories. The commonly understood concept of species of clearly demarcated animal types is a human construct, and scientists understand that reality is much more nuanced.

Species is nearly the lowest rung of our classification ladder (it's not necessarily the lowest because of subspecies or races), and perhaps reaching a mutual understanding on the definition of species and how vague it can sometimes be will be helpful in understanding why science places humans, chimps and gorillas in the same classification category, which should be helpful in the Why are there no human apes alive today? thread.

Edited by Admin, : Typo.

Edited by Admin, : Grammar.

Edited by Admin, : AbE.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12631
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 448 of 450 (653455)
02-21-2012 9:07 AM


Starting Summation Mode Now
This thread is over four years old, I'm throwing it into summation mode.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

    
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