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Author Topic:   Definition of Species
Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 311 of 450 (615222)
05-11-2011 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by Coragyps
05-11-2011 1:43 PM


Re: Gene Deletion
How are genes typically named, Big_Al?

Well we've had a few examples of gene names eg
APOL1, APOL4, CARD18

This new one C4C1001 does not follow that convention ie four letters and a number but then I have no idea how they choose the names and thats why I said I was intrigued. Do you have any ideas about how they name genes?

Edited by Big_Al35, : No reason given.


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 Message 309 by Coragyps, posted 05-11-2011 1:43 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 313 of 450 (615226)
05-11-2011 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by Theodoric
05-11-2011 2:45 PM


Re: Gene Deletion
Ever hear of google?

Hey, thanks for that. I will have to give that a try sometime. Not now though...I have to clip my toe nails first. You have to prioritise you know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Theodoric, posted 05-11-2011 2:45 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
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Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 317 of 450 (617856)
05-31-2011 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Percy
05-11-2011 12:54 PM


Re: Gene Deletion
Percy writes:

Again, no one is writing papers on whether chimps have genes that humans do not.

You originally stated that chimps and humans both have genes that the other does not have. Please provide evidence for your claims or alternatively retract your remark.

Percy writes:

But you vastly underestimate the importance of the olfactory genes. While the smell sensors are small and not physically visible they evidently are of critical importance for tetrapods because of the amount of genetic and brain real estate dedicated to them.

You also stated that while humans and chimps share 98% of their genome it was the genes that were different. The article referring to the olfactory genes refers to large numbers of pseudo genes differing between the two species. Infact pseudogenes outnumber real genes by a significant order of magnitude in this article. This suggests that it's not so much the genes but the non functional parts of the DNA that are most different between the two species.

Your reference/evidence therefore contradicts your own argument.


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 Message 308 by Percy, posted 05-11-2011 12:54 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Wounded King, posted 05-31-2011 4:47 PM Big_Al35 has responded
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Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 320 of 450 (618117)
06-01-2011 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Wounded King
05-31-2011 4:47 PM


Re: Gene Deletion
WK writes:

You have had a number of examples presented to you from a variety of papers.

Disagree. You have named only one potential candidate ie C4C1001 which non of us have been able to cross reference with any other source. We still haven't even established if this a real gene or not. Even if you were to tell me that it were, you don't have any cross reference to cement your claim. We can't continue with this debate while Percy continues to make wild claims with no substance behind them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Wounded King, posted 05-31-2011 4:47 PM Wounded King has responded

Replies to this message:
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Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 324 of 450 (618210)
06-02-2011 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Wounded King
06-01-2011 3:52 PM


Re: Gene Deletion
WK writes:

Still lets give you yet another example to see how you fudge and slide your way around it

There is no obligation upon me to explain what I intend to use this information for as Percy would have you believe.

Ahh finally we have something to work with ie MYH16. It's not a case of trying to wriggle out of anything. If you make a claim like the one Percy made you should be able to back it up with evidence. I note that the evidence had to come from you and not Percy?

Why can't Percy back up his own claims?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Wounded King, posted 06-01-2011 3:52 PM Wounded King has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by Panda, posted 06-02-2011 6:31 AM Big_Al35 has not yet responded
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Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 328 of 450 (618385)
06-03-2011 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by Percy
06-02-2011 6:55 AM


Re: Gene Deletion
Percy writes:

we're curious what you're planning to do with this information

Well I could add this information to an an article that I am currently writing or I could write it on a piece of toilet tissue and wipe my ass with it. Why do you care?


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 Message 326 by Percy, posted 06-02-2011 6:55 AM Percy has responded

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 Message 331 by tesla, posted 06-10-2011 12:51 PM Big_Al35 has responded

    
Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 337 of 450 (622498)
07-04-2011 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by tesla
06-10-2011 12:51 PM


Re: Gene Deletion
tesla writes:

Definition of species is an interesting debate. Please allow this article to help you follow your point to fruition?

And please tell me what you think my point is? More interestingly, what is your point as you have submitted an article. Presumably there is a point to it?


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 Message 331 by tesla, posted 06-10-2011 12:51 PM tesla has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 339 of 450 (622580)
07-05-2011 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 338 by Wounded King
07-04-2011 8:36 AM


Re: Gene Deletion
WK writes:

Surely Tesla's point is fairly well conveyed by the article he chose to cite.

There you go, answering for other people again...why do you keep doing that? What is the point of this?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Wounded King, posted 07-04-2011 8:36 AM Wounded King has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 341 of 450 (622724)
07-06-2011 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 340 by Percy
07-05-2011 10:33 AM


Re: Gene Deletion
Percy writes:

Welcome back. Have you returned to resume the discussion we were having last month?

I was just curious to know where this discussion would be headed without my input. However, it would appear that between you, you have very few ideas and have made very little progress.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Percy, posted 07-05-2011 10:33 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Percy, posted 07-06-2011 7:50 AM Big_Al35 has responded

    
Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 343 of 450 (623448)
07-10-2011 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Percy
07-06-2011 7:50 AM


Re: Gene Deletion
Percy writes:

You were wondering whether the discussion with you would continue after you left? How odd!

Are you saying that unless I contribute you will close this thread down? Be my guest.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Percy, posted 07-06-2011 7:50 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Percy, posted 07-10-2011 6:12 PM Big_Al35 has responded

    
Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 347 of 450 (624489)
07-18-2011 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 344 by Percy
07-10-2011 6:12 PM


Re: Gene Deletion
Percy writes:

but if you'd like to do that then the thread's open and available

Ok in that case I will continue...

I think I have been right all along in pressing for proper identification of a gene difference. The example we have is MHY16 which is quite a good example as it is functional in chimps but not in humans. One of the reasons that it is not functional in humans is due to a frameshift.

MHY16 is classed as a defective frame-shifted allele in humans. Frame-shift is when DNA across species, which may be very similar, (as in the case of humans and chimps) produces very different genes. ie sequences of DNA which are almost identical will produce different proteins because the start and end points for reading the code are different. Maybe WK or one of the other biologists here could elaborate on this point.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Percy, posted 07-10-2011 6:12 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 350 of 450 (624635)
07-19-2011 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by Wounded King
07-18-2011 10:05 AM


Re: Frameshifts
One point about frameshift mutations is that their impact is likely to be very significant and more so than one might expect.

If we take a phrase ie

THE CAT ATE THE RAT END where END represents the stop codon and then introduce a frameshift on this we might get something like

THE CAA TAT ETH ERA TEN D

As you can see the meaning of the sentence is completely lost and the full stop has gone too. Any subsequent sentence could also become gibberish. The few examples of frameshift mutations that I have come across in humans often have terrible consequences eg
Duchenne muscular dystrophy and Tay Sachs. If you know of any beneficial mutations that would be intriguing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Wounded King, posted 07-18-2011 10:05 AM Wounded King has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by Wounded King, posted 07-19-2011 8:03 AM Big_Al35 has responded
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Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 355 of 450 (625007)
07-21-2011 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 352 by Wounded King
07-19-2011 8:03 AM


Re: Frameshifts
WK writes:

Do you mean a modern contemporary spontaneous beneficial frameshift mutation in the human population?

Yes, let's focus on humans rather than chimpanzees for the time being. I would be interested in any human to human examples of frameshifted alleles which might generate new traits or features for an individual.

Only from this context can we then move on to presuppose frameshifting across the species.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by Wounded King, posted 07-19-2011 8:03 AM Wounded King has responded

Replies to this message:
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Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 357 of 450 (625016)
07-21-2011 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by Wounded King
07-18-2011 10:05 AM


Re: Frameshifts
WK writes:

Any other ludicrous and irrelevant stipulations you want to make? Can we only consider macroevolution if the moon is made of green cheese?

WK writes:

frame-shift mutations can produce mutations just as readily trans-generationally. Indeed there are probably many cells within your own body hosting frameshift mutations.

Aha, so you are also guilty of making wild generalisations without evidence to back up your claims. I'll take your previous comment as bullshit then.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Wounded King, posted 07-18-2011 10:05 AM Wounded King has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by Percy, posted 07-21-2011 8:01 AM Big_Al35 has responded
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Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 359 of 450 (625029)
07-21-2011 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 351 by Wounded King
07-19-2011 6:57 AM


Re: Gene Deletion
WK writes:

I looked it up and the actual mutation in the human lineage is a 2 base deletion in exon 18 of the gene. This deletion introduces a stop codon about 30 bases further downstream. This results in the protein being truncated from its expected size of 223 kilodaltons down to 76 kilodaltons.

In this MYH16 mutation, it turns out that this frameshift caused a punctuation mark (aka a stop codon) to just pop up so the protein is cut off far sooner than it should be! Not too good for any traits relying on that protein.

So far from it actually pushing the stop codon further downstream as we had previously implied it appears that the stop codon appears earlier in the sequence. If you were a software engineer you could think of it as like commented out code.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Wounded King, posted 07-19-2011 6:57 AM Wounded King has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by Wounded King, posted 07-21-2011 8:39 AM Big_Al35 has responded

    
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