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Author Topic:   Definition of Species
tesla
Member (Idle past 2371 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


(1)
Message 331 of 450 (619568)
06-10-2011 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by Big_Al35
06-03-2011 4:03 AM


Re: Gene Deletion
Please do not let your anger kill the productivity of the debate.

Definition of species is an interesting debate. Please allow this article to help you follow your point to fruition?

"The key changes are not in bits of DNA that humans acquired as they
evolved–extra genes that we have but chimps and other animals do
not–but in chunks of DNA that we lost. What’s more, the chunks in
question are not even genes at all, but sequences of DNA that lie in
between genes and act as switches, orchestrating when and where
specific genes are turned on and off through the course of an
animal’s development."

This is a 2011 article.

http://susansayler.wordpress.com/...manity-is-in-missing-dna

"The set-up allowed Kingsley and his colleagues to physically see
where the AR and GADD45G genes are switched on in mice and chimp
fetuses, and so what humans lack (Nature, DOI: 10.1038/nature09774)."


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by Big_Al35, posted 06-03-2011 4:03 AM Big_Al35 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by Taq, posted 06-10-2011 1:11 PM tesla has acknowledged this reply
 Message 333 by Percy, posted 06-10-2011 1:58 PM tesla has responded
 Message 337 by Big_Al35, posted 07-04-2011 7:47 AM tesla has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8161
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 332 of 450 (619575)
06-10-2011 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by tesla
06-10-2011 12:51 PM


Re: Gene Deletion
Definition of species is an interesting debate. Please allow this article to help you follow your point to fruition?

This is a very, very good point. It is entirely possible to have two separate species that share all of the same genes where the differences between the species are due to differential expression of genes. Also, morphological differences can arise due to the relative differences in mRNA levels for a given gene, and when those genes are turned on during embryonic development and maturation. This is why the cutting edge of evolutionary research (at least in metazoans) focuses so strongly on Evo-Devo.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by tesla, posted 06-10-2011 12:51 PM tesla has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18971
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 333 of 450 (619587)
06-10-2011 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by tesla
06-10-2011 12:51 PM


Re: Gene Deletion
Hi Tesla,

Big Al's position is that humans have every gene that chimps have and more. He seemed to feel that more is better, and that it is therefore impossible that chimps could be better than humans by having more genes. He isn't likely to see an argument that humans have less of anything than chimps as helpful.

On a more general level Al's position is that it isn't possible to use genetics to differentiate between species, and so he's also unlikely to welcome the work of Dr. Kingsley identifying key genetic differences between humans and our nearest relatives.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by tesla, posted 06-10-2011 12:51 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by tesla, posted 06-10-2011 2:11 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 335 by Wounded King, posted 06-10-2011 2:39 PM Percy has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 2371 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 334 of 450 (619592)
06-10-2011 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by Percy
06-10-2011 1:58 PM


Re: Gene Deletion
Big Al's position

I read the majority of his posts and was not able to define his position exactly.

I do know he doesn’t agree with yours.

I posted the information because he intrigued me by not being clear as to "where he was going"

If he ignores the information I can only conclude he didn't know where he was going.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Percy, posted 06-10-2011 1:58 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2408 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 335 of 450 (619598)
06-10-2011 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by Percy
06-10-2011 1:58 PM


Not Al's position as I understand it
On a more general level Al's position is that it isn't possible to use genetics to differentiate between species

I've got to say Percy, this sounds like the very opposite of Big Al's position. He has been saying since way back in Message 146 that species can be defined by distinct sets of genes, what he disputes is that we can meaningfully infer cross species ancestry and phylogeny from DNA similarities.

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Percy, posted 06-10-2011 1:58 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by Percy, posted 06-10-2011 3:13 PM Wounded King has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18971
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 336 of 450 (619604)
06-10-2011 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by Wounded King
06-10-2011 2:39 PM


Re: Not Al's position as I understand it
Yes, you're right, it would have been better had I emphasized that he doesn't accept that genetic analysis can derive ancestry. Regarding whether species are defined by distinct sets of genes he has been inconsistent. What he was saying back around Message 146 contradicts his position later on when he was arguing that humans and chimps shared all the same genes.

But it is a mistake to see too much coherency in Al's views. Any sense that some might think is there I claim is not real but is merely in the eye of the beholder, a kind of conceptual pareidolia.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Wounded King, posted 06-10-2011 2:39 PM Wounded King has not yet responded

  
Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 337 of 450 (622498)
07-04-2011 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by tesla
06-10-2011 12:51 PM


Re: Gene Deletion
tesla writes:

Definition of species is an interesting debate. Please allow this article to help you follow your point to fruition?

And please tell me what you think my point is? More interestingly, what is your point as you have submitted an article. Presumably there is a point to it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by tesla, posted 06-10-2011 12:51 PM tesla has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by Wounded King, posted 07-04-2011 8:36 AM Big_Al35 has responded

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2408 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 338 of 450 (622500)
07-04-2011 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 337 by Big_Al35
07-04-2011 7:47 AM


Re: Gene Deletion
Surely Tesla's point is fairly well conveyed by the article he chose to cite. Several key differences between humans and chimps are not due to any human specific gains of novel genes but rather the human specific loss of particular non-coding regulatory sequences which are otherwise conserved in mammals.

As to what he thinks your point is, he himself says only a few posts later that he can't tell, along with the rest of us in fact. Perhaps you could put an end to our longstanding anticipation and actually tell us yourself what your point is.

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Big_Al35, posted 07-04-2011 7:47 AM Big_Al35 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by Big_Al35, posted 07-05-2011 8:11 AM Wounded King has not yet responded

  
Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 339 of 450 (622580)
07-05-2011 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 338 by Wounded King
07-04-2011 8:36 AM


Re: Gene Deletion
WK writes:

Surely Tesla's point is fairly well conveyed by the article he chose to cite.

There you go, answering for other people again...why do you keep doing that? What is the point of this?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Wounded King, posted 07-04-2011 8:36 AM Wounded King has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by Percy, posted 07-05-2011 10:33 AM Big_Al35 has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18971
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 340 of 450 (622598)
07-05-2011 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by Big_Al35
07-05-2011 8:11 AM


Re: Gene Deletion
Hi Big Al,

Welcome back. Have you returned to resume the discussion we were having last month?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Big_Al35, posted 07-05-2011 8:11 AM Big_Al35 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Big_Al35, posted 07-06-2011 7:43 AM Percy has responded

  
Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 341 of 450 (622724)
07-06-2011 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 340 by Percy
07-05-2011 10:33 AM


Re: Gene Deletion
Percy writes:

Welcome back. Have you returned to resume the discussion we were having last month?

I was just curious to know where this discussion would be headed without my input. However, it would appear that between you, you have very few ideas and have made very little progress.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Percy, posted 07-05-2011 10:33 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Percy, posted 07-06-2011 7:50 AM Big_Al35 has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18971
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 342 of 450 (622725)
07-06-2011 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by Big_Al35
07-06-2011 7:43 AM


Re: Gene Deletion
Big_Al35 writes:

I was just curious to know where this discussion would be headed without my input. However, it would appear that between you, you have very few ideas and have made very little progress.

You were wondering whether the discussion with you would continue after you left? How odd!

Anyway, if you'd like to continue the discussion about the definition of species then that's what this thread is here for.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Big_Al35, posted 07-06-2011 7:43 AM Big_Al35 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by Big_Al35, posted 07-10-2011 3:48 PM Percy has responded

  
Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 343 of 450 (623448)
07-10-2011 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Percy
07-06-2011 7:50 AM


Re: Gene Deletion
Percy writes:

You were wondering whether the discussion with you would continue after you left? How odd!

Are you saying that unless I contribute you will close this thread down? Be my guest.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Percy, posted 07-06-2011 7:50 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Percy, posted 07-10-2011 6:12 PM Big_Al35 has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18971
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 344 of 450 (623465)
07-10-2011 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by Big_Al35
07-10-2011 3:48 PM


Re: Gene Deletion
Big_Al35 writes:

Are you saying that unless I contribute you will close this thread down? Be my guest.

I'm not sure where that's coming from, and I'm a participant in this thread, not a moderator.

Anyway, not sure why you keep keep popping back in if you're not interested in continuing the discussion, but if you'd like to do that then the thread's open and available.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Big_Al35, posted 07-10-2011 3:48 PM Big_Al35 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by Big_Al35, posted 07-18-2011 7:01 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
fiedel 
Suspended Junior Member (Idle past 2955 days)
Posts: 2
Joined: 07-13-2011


Message 345 of 450 (623756)
07-13-2011 6:03 AM


Re: Definition of species
(1) The lowest taxonomic rank, and the most basic unit or category of biological classification.

(2) An individual belonging to a group of organisms (or the entire group itself) having common characteristics and (usually) are capable of mating with one another.

A species is given a two-part name: the generic name and the specific name (or specific epithet). For example, Allium cepa (commonly known as onion)

Edited by Admin, : Fix message subtitle.


  
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