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Author Topic:   Explanations for the Cambrian Explosion
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 3 of 137 (486419)
10-20-2008 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Blue Jay
10-20-2008 1:57 AM


One point that creationists, either knowingly or unknowingly, grt the impression that all thye phyla formed during the Cambrian explosion. Most of the current phyla existed before the Cambrian.
Citing Dawkin's The Ancestor's tale,Chap 26
IN THE DEEPS of geological time, and iof the hard support of fossils, we are now entirely reliant on the technique that I referred to in the General Prologue as molecular range finding. The upside is that the technique is getting even more sophisticated. Molecular range finding confirms a belief longheld by comparative anatomists, or more strictly comparative embryologists, that the greater part of the animal kingdomis divided into two great sub-kingdoms, the Deuterostomia & the Protostomia.

from this chapter it shows that the separation of these 2 sub-kingdoms occurred before the Cambrian. with most of the phyla from at least the protostomes having evolved before the Cambrian.

the prtostome phyla before the Cambrian:

Chaetognatha - Arrow worms
Tardigrata - Water Bears
Onychophora - Velvet Worms
Arthopoda - Insects, crustaceans, arachnids etc.
Cephalorhynchs - no common name
Nematoda - Round worms
Nenatophora - Hairworms
Gnathifera - Rotifers
Platyhelminthes - Flat Worms
Brachiozoa - Brachiopods (lamp shells)
Entoprocta - Goblet Worms
Bryozoa - Moss Animals
Nemertea - Ribbon Worms
Mollusca - Clams, squid, octopi etc.
Annelida - Segmented worms
Sipunculoidea - Peanut worms

All of these phhla existed before the so called Cambrian Explosion.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 7 of 137 (486477)
10-21-2008 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dr Jack
10-21-2008 5:29 AM


Then what are they? Most were Phyla even when I was in school back in the 50's & 60's. Some have different names, They are listed as phylea in the source I listed The Ancestor's Tale.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


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 Message 5 by Dr Jack, posted 10-21-2008 5:29 AM Dr Jack has responded

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 9 of 137 (486482)
10-21-2008 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by mark24
10-21-2008 6:11 AM


From a combination of Fossil record, DNA sequencing and a process Dawkins calls Triangulation, which combines the fossil record with the similarity of the DNA sequencing and relates to when the similar sequencing appears in a common ancestor in what he calls the Molecular Clock. Do to the misconception that many people have that the so living fossils have not changed since the whatever era, what is considered the time a particular phylum occured in the geological time line is not necessarily correct. The common ancestor of both the Bryozoa & the Entoprocta is also the common ancestor of the Brachiozoa, Nemertea, Mollusca, Annelida & Sipunculoidea, which broke away from the protostome main line some time prior to the Cambrian.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 11 of 137 (486515)
10-21-2008 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by NOT JULIUS
10-21-2008 7:57 PM


Re: Why common anscestor (singular)?
The term common ancestor simply means that if one traces the genetic development back to a point where the branch goes in 2 directions, the point where the branch forks is the common ancestor of the 2 branches, which is why it is singular.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 13 of 137 (486519)
10-21-2008 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by NOT JULIUS
10-21-2008 8:16 PM


Re: Modern life form ?
How old is your reference source, A View of Life?


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 26 of 137 (486697)
10-23-2008 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by NOT JULIUS
10-23-2008 2:57 PM


Re: Why common anscestor... The confusion
You are confusing yourself by the use of terminology.

Razd writes:

Technically, singular is incorrect. What is correct is a common ancestral population..

This is in reference to the fact that it is not just one particular animal of a particular species evolves but that a population of this species undergoes evolutionary changes do to any number of effects of the environment, speciation, separation of the members of the same species etc. The point I made as to why it is a sigle common ancestor is in regards to the evolved species and not a single individual.

The other problem is the use of the term "explosion." It was simply used to indicate a large number of new species that evolved during the period, particularly before much the current data was found after the term was coined.

Edited by bluescat48, : spelling


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by NOT JULIUS, posted 10-23-2008 2:57 PM NOT JULIUS has responded

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 31 of 137 (486722)
10-23-2008 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by NOT JULIUS
10-23-2008 8:28 PM


Re: When Will my Confusion End? Am I taken for a ride
1. If Darwin can conjecture that the tribolite descended from one-precambrian ancestor, and if there is found today a living tribolite almost exactly the same as in the fossil--can I speculate that Darwin took us for a ride?

No since Darwin didn't have the benefit of DNA and the genomes of the particular entities, there would have been only speculation on the relationships of the various species. Trilobites create a problem in that with no surviving ancestors one can only speculate as to their relationship to either the mandibulate arthropods (insects, crustaceans, diplopods) or the chelicerate arthropods (horseshoe crabs or arachnids) and until such time as this can be determined there will be a problem of relationship.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by NOT JULIUS, posted 10-23-2008 8:28 PM NOT JULIUS has responded

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 40 of 137 (486802)
10-24-2008 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by NOT JULIUS
10-24-2008 5:42 PM


Re: When Will my Confusion End? Am I taken for a ride
Or we can also speculate that...
1) tribolites have no ancestors because they just appeared all of a sudden--that's why the term "explosion".
2) Or some outer space being--and this one from a scientist in the article I followed speculated--created or planted them here.

No in that it is known that trilobites are arthropods but how they are related to the other arthropods is problematic. Their ancestors are the same as those of the other arthropods.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by NOT JULIUS, posted 10-24-2008 5:42 PM NOT JULIUS has responded

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 44 of 137 (486814)
10-24-2008 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by NOT JULIUS
10-24-2008 6:22 PM


Re: When Will my Confusion End? Am I taken for a ride
Ancestor
\---------Mandibulate
|\
| \
| \
| \Trilobite
|
\Chilacerate

What I was saying is that the relationship between the trilobites and the rest of the phylum is in question but as per the above chart they can have the same common ancestor.

Edited by bluescat48, : No reason given.

Edited by bluescat48, : No reason given.

Edited by bluescat48, : No reason given.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by NOT JULIUS, posted 10-24-2008 6:22 PM NOT JULIUS has not yet responded

    
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 60 of 137 (487135)
10-27-2008 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Jason777
10-27-2008 6:53 PM


IN THE CAMBRIAN,John Repetski,US Geol. Survey,"The oldest land plants now known are from the early cambrian...Approximately 60 cambrian spore-genera are now on record...Represent 6 different groups of vascular plants..."EVOLUTION,V.13,6/59,P.264"

Try something newer that 6/59, there has been quite a lot of research since then.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Jason777, posted 10-27-2008 6:53 PM Jason777 has not yet responded

    
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 62 of 137 (487156)
10-28-2008 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Jason777
10-28-2008 1:54 AM


Try starting at the main page for this site. Heres a 2006 article;MULTIPLE LINES OF EVIDENCE SUPPORT THE PRESENCE OF CAMBRIAN LAND PLANTS gsa.confex.com/gsa/2006AM/finalprogram/abstract_114319.htm - 6k -

I ried the site you listed

404 NOT FOUND!

The document you are looking for cannot be found on this server.
If you believe you are seeing this page in error please contact our support staff
Reference number 058-375-134.
Date: Tue Oct 28 09:10:02 EDT 2008


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Jason777, posted 10-28-2008 1:54 AM Jason777 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 65 of 137 (487203)
10-28-2008 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by NosyNed
10-28-2008 9:28 AM


Re: Site Link
Strange, when I click on your link it works, but copying the link from the other message gave me an error message. What next?

My point that I wanted was verification of the type of Cambrian plant life which was just as I figured, Bryophytes & Cryptospores, which is not anything unreasonable.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by NosyNed, posted 10-28-2008 9:28 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

    
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 68 of 137 (487242)
10-28-2008 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Jason777
10-28-2008 3:38 PM


You didn't go the route.

One possibility, however, is that the ancient pentastomids attached themselves to the gills of some of the large marine arthropods which were common in Ordovician times. These include familiar fossils such as the trilobites, and a lesser-known group called the anomalocarids, voracious predators which could grow up to 2 metres long. At some point, suggests Riley, the pentastomids must have made the leap from marine invertebrates to freshwater and land-living vertebrates, and so were able to survive when their former hosts became extinct.

Just because modern tongue worms are parasites of modern animals it doesn't mean that the Cambrian tongue worms had to. There were plenty of animals for them to be parasites of.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Jason777, posted 10-28-2008 3:38 PM Jason777 has not yet responded

    
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 73 of 137 (487953)
11-06-2008 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by AlphaOmegakid
11-06-2008 3:15 PM


Re: Why common anscestor... The confusion
In the Cambrian "Poof" (it's a better word than "explosion")

No it isn't and the term explosion is senseless too unless you consider a "poof" or "explosion" to be 15+ million years.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 11-06-2008 3:15 PM AlphaOmegakid has responded

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 107 of 137 (488106)
11-07-2008 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by AlphaOmegakid
11-07-2008 6:08 PM


Re: so what?
The atmospheric oxygen supposedly came from the seas.

But not from simply disolved oxygen, but from the photosynthesis of cyano bacteria & primitive algae


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 11-07-2008 6:08 PM AlphaOmegakid has not yet responded

    
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