Ring species as evidence for speciation

They are so afraid of not being "saved" that really that is what their life revolves around. If Satan is tempting them every step of the way, then it is also easy to presume that Evolution is just a devilishly large ploy to lead them astray, and thus lose out on salvation.Now, we are many other Christians who know that this is nonsense, and that we have our brain and senses so we can use them. The others are pretty much a lost cause, as far as I see them.

Still here, don't have anything to say.

You are the one who provided the most in-depth comment to the issue of the ring species. I would love more comments.

well, the really sad part is that, in my opinion, there is so much more to christianity. people who get caught up in the absolute need for the literalness and inerrency of the bible miss so much.

Sorry, I have no comments to make. I'm no expert, just happened to be aware of the recent paper and posted a link to it. From your posts I presume you know a lot more about the genetics and techniques than I do. Physics and geology are more my things.

That is what is so pathetic about creationists, this insecurity. Faith simply isn't enough for them, they need this concrete "evidence" so desperately that then have to "create" it themselves. That is no different than the Israeliets needing to build a Golden Calf while Moses reportedly was getting the 10C.Creationists are our modern-day weak-at-faith followers who are not secure in themselves and who must remake reality because their fixed and absolutions idea doesn't fit reality. It is all rather pathetic and sad.

this could be interpretted as an attack on certain board members.but as a christian, i will agree. genesis being literal is not something faith should be based on, and faith does not require proof.This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 06-09-2004 11:49 PM

I didn't have anybody specific in mind, more a long experience with creationists.As for Faith and proof, that truly is nothing but a new version of the Golden Calf. God doesn't tell us to have evidence of God's existence, but rather to have Faith in God's existence. That doesn't preclude Evolution and other factual events that we can witness with our eyes and evaluate with our brain.

The topic is ring species.Other themes belong elsewhere.Adminnemooseus

Well, it is nice to stay on focus, but no creationists seem interested in having their arguments founder on the solid evidence of ring-species.

[creationist]
But...but... they're still vertebrates!
[/creationist]

Oh, you make it difficult to be on topic.

there are several nice little examples of the same species that lives on either side of a something and when reconnected no longer interact like the same species. for instance, there is a crab that lives both east and west of central america in the respective waters. when they built the panama canal these two east and west crabs were reintroduced... instead of mating, they fought. and of course, the very first principle of speciation is a failure to interbreed. even if it is by 'choice' because they simply don't recognize each other.

now you know that's not the definition.horses and donkeys interbreed all the time, and they're not the same species.

yes i know. and horses and zebras can be interbred (if i'm not mistaken) not to mention that extinct species of zebra.there are many more factors to speciation. but failure to breed is one of them. also, there are many more reasons why things can't interbreed than simple genetics. like the mixed signals i mentioned and a few other things.it's simply not as simple a process as people think.This message has been edited by brennakimi, 06-28-2004 06:41 PM