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Author Topic:   MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2310
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 7.0


(1)
Message 208 of 908 (816692)
08-09-2017 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by RAZD
08-09-2017 1:08 PM


Re: More definitions? Problems?
... but that first breeding population is not evolving, their descendants are, and often the clade founding population is extinct when it becomes a "family" or higher category.

It's just names, not a new mechanism or process of evolution. Species don't get placed in higher categories via their evolution, but through the production of descendants that produce descendants, etc, etc, etc.

This reminds me of debates we had here (at EvC) years ago about why there are no "new phyla" emerging from lineages that are evolving in the present. The answer, of course, is that all the species alive and evolving today already belong to a phylum.

It is certainly possible that any species alive today could produce descendant species, that produce descendant species, and so on, and that at some point in the future observers would see that the lineage of descendants make up a clade that is as unique from other clades that it could be described similarly to how we describe the clades within the phyla we see today.

Observing the earliest species of a clade gives the observer no clues what descendants it will evolve in the future. Looking back at a lineage we can see where microevolution became macroevolution through anagenesis or cladogenesis, but we do not see macroevolution as a process unique from microevolution.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by RAZD, posted 08-09-2017 1:08 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2310
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 7.0


Message 329 of 908 (817087)
08-15-2017 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by Faith
08-15-2017 11:40 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
As I understand it, a neutral mutation is simply a mutation that does not change the protein produced at that locus, therefore doesn't change the phenotype.

Your understanding is incorrect. A neutral mutation is neutral with respect to fitness. It may change the phenotype, but not every change in the phenotype has a positive or negative effect on fitness or is subject to selection.

And a changed phenotype would have to spread through the population to have a part in forming a new species or breed etc. That spreading would be the result of some form of selection, something that favors that phenotype.

The genes for the change in phenotype can spread through drift and they may never reach a large proportion of the population. Almost all populations consist of individuals that are not identical genetically or phenotypically. The individuals that make up the population have many thousands of traits that each vary with gaussian-type distributions.

As I keep pointing out, if you keep getting mutations eventually you lose your species or breed.

In this case breeds and species are not similar because breeding has a goal of creating purebreds.

Nature has no goal of "pure species", and as is observed, species vary greatly in thousands of traits and mutations keep adding variety in every surviving individual in every generation.

I note surviving individuals because obviously lethal mutations are eliminated. Often detrimental mutations are not passed on or are passed on to fewer offspring.

Highly beneficial mutations may eventually reach fixation in a population, but most mutations, even beneficial ones are at lower proportions in the population.

Some breeds have to be artificially preserved by enforced reproductive isolation but it is that isolation that keeps such identifiable populations identifiable and intact, protecting them from the gene flow that would destroy their recognizability.

And again, this may apply to selective breeding, but there is no biological boundary protecting natural populations from the gene flow that would destroy their recognizability.

Billions of years of fossil evidence and observations of the living species in the present demonstrate that despite millions of species going extinct, millions of species survive and continue to evolve on the Earth today.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 11:40 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2310
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 7.0


(1)
Message 347 of 908 (817128)
08-15-2017 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by Faith
08-15-2017 1:43 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Doesn't affect what I said about beetles.

quote:
The original beetle probably had no junk DNA for starters and many genes for every trait. That would very likely be quite enough to account for that many different species without any mutations at all.

What you said about beetles is incorrect. You made it up. It is complete fantasy without a single shred of evidence and is not supported by a single study in the whole history of scientific research.

This is a science forum, not a fantastical imaginary make up any dimwitted idea forum.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 1:43 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:11 PM Tanypteryx has responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2310
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 7.0


(1)
Message 354 of 908 (817138)
08-15-2017 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Faith
08-15-2017 2:11 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Faith writes:

So I'm not allowed to give an alternative explanation or hypothesis here, only the establishment view is allowed. Well, that figures.

The EVIDENCE refutes your "explanation." It belongs in an imaginary fantasy forum.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:11 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2310
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 7.0


(1)
Message 456 of 908 (817377)
08-17-2017 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 448 by DOCJ
08-16-2017 8:39 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
DOCJ writes:

2 Science changes like the wind.

What does this even mean? Can you give us a couple examples of "science changing like the wind?"

DOCJ writes:

I'm not arguing that it is unhealthy to change your mind persay, quite the opposite. I'm arguing 1 it can be unhealthy

So, which are you arguing?

DOCJ writes:

Which does lead to a type of knowledge and this knowledge can and will be debated, corrected, and etc.

"Which does lead to a type of knowledge", what does this even mean?

Science is a standardized method of discovering things about the Universe that is intentionally designed to correct errors in conclusions by refining experiments and observations.

DOCJ writes:

Millions use it supporting creation such as the reasons to believe entity.

What? Is English not your native language?

DOCJ writes:

And others use it to suggest evolution such as hawking.

Evolution is a conclusion based on evidence and observation.

What does "evolution such as hawking" even mean?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 448 by DOCJ, posted 08-16-2017 8:39 PM DOCJ has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 498 by DOCJ, posted 08-17-2017 9:12 PM Tanypteryx has responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2310
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 7.0


Message 527 of 908 (817610)
08-18-2017 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 498 by DOCJ
08-17-2017 9:12 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
DOCJ writes:

Big bang, big crunch, multiverse, string theory, electrical universe theory, evolution, darwinian evolution, theory of evolution, general relativity, quantum theory, abiogenesis, etc..

Thanks for being so precise and specific. So basically you don't have a clue about science and how it works.

DOCJ writes:

Umm... ok... 🙄 It's unhealthy to change your mind frequently = i.e. not unhealthy persay/can be unhealthy. You didn't catch that point? Sorry, I will do my best to be clear.

Sorry, I don't see what could possibly be unhealthy about scientists changing their minds in light of new evidence.

DOCJ writes:

If you study you learn. And what you learn is equal to a belief. The knowledge gained from studying is ultimately a belief.

I would say it depends on what you are studying.

If you are using science to conduct your study then your conclusions gained from the study would be based on evidence.

Beliefs are not based on verifiable evidence, so beliefs are NOT equal to scientific knowledge.

DOCJ writes:

Nothing is absolute.

This is true and it is one of the basic tenets of science.

DOCJ writes:

And yes, Science, overtime, if the theory is comprehensive may be the ultimate truth of nature to human beings. Hope you understood that last part.

One of the goals of science is to refine its theories over time to be closer and closer to accurate descriptions of reality. Achieving the "ultimate truth about nature to human beings" is not really a part of the scientific method, primarily because it is recognized that new evidence or observations may refine or change our understanding.

Yep, I understood that last part, I just disagree that that is the way science works and so is an unrealistic expectation.

DOCJ writes:

Hawking accepts evolution.

Ah, if you mean Stephen Hawking, then yes I would say he understands how science works and accepts the conclusions of science, based on the mountains of evidence we have discovered over the last several hundred years.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 498 by DOCJ, posted 08-17-2017 9:12 PM DOCJ has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 529 by DOCJ, posted 08-18-2017 6:07 PM Tanypteryx has responded
 Message 531 by DOCJ, posted 08-18-2017 6:47 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2310
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 7.0


Message 530 of 908 (817629)
08-18-2017 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 529 by DOCJ
08-18-2017 6:07 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Wow good job buddy. You are learning. You still have not figured it out..

Oh, I figured it out alright, you're just a troll.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 529 by DOCJ, posted 08-18-2017 6:07 PM DOCJ has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 532 by DOCJ, posted 08-18-2017 6:53 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2310
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 7.0


Message 903 of 908 (849358)
03-07-2019 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 902 by Dredge
03-06-2019 11:25 PM


and any evolution above the level of genus.

I don't understand what this means. What is evolving?

Evolution is a side effect of reproduction. Individual organisms reproduce. They belong to a species.

A group of related species may share a genus, but genera do not reproduce or evolve.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 902 by Dredge, posted 03-06-2019 11:25 PM Dredge has not yet responded

    
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