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Author Topic:   MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 360 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 111 of 908 (671249)
08-23-2012 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Big_Al35
08-23-2012 1:52 PM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
Just to clarify can you give me an example of this in the natural world? And furthermore, if it has been observed in the natural world does that mean it must be true?

You are a prime example.

That you differ from your parents is microevolution.

That you differ from your ape-like ancestors of a few million years ago is macroevolution.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Big_Al35, posted 08-23-2012 1:52 PM Big_Al35 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Big_Al35, posted 08-24-2012 6:17 AM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 360 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 116 of 908 (671302)
08-24-2012 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Big_Al35
08-24-2012 6:17 AM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
Still waiting for that "observed" example or at least a definition of what you mean by observed.

No, what you are doing is trying to obfuscate the whole issue because you have chosen not to believe in evolution no matter what the evidence is.

I gave you classic examples of microevolution and macroevolution, but you seem to require that they be directly "observed" and now you want to argue about the definition of "observed."

Face it, evolution happened.

The whole apes-to-humans scenario that paleontologists have described actually happened.

Ancient tribal myths that say otherwise are inaccurate.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Big_Al35, posted 08-24-2012 6:17 AM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by kofh2u, posted 08-24-2012 10:39 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 360 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 122 of 908 (671322)
08-24-2012 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by kofh2u
08-24-2012 10:50 AM


Boo-boo
There is a significant error in your last image.

The human line did not lead from Caucasian to Negroid to Mongoloid.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by kofh2u, posted 08-24-2012 10:50 AM kofh2u has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2012 11:43 AM Coyote has not yet responded
 Message 127 by NoNukes, posted 08-24-2012 12:13 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 360 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 133 of 908 (671369)
08-24-2012 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by kofh2u
08-24-2012 12:57 PM


Re: Boo-boo
You are spouting pure nonsense, and off-topic nonsense at that.

If you want to discuss human races then start a new thread for that subject. That's something I studied in graduate school and have quite a good library on.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by kofh2u, posted 08-24-2012 12:57 PM kofh2u has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 360 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 304 of 908 (817045)
08-15-2017 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by Faith
08-15-2017 10:30 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
A better analogy is running out of fuel...

Something like 3.8 billion years later and we aren't running out of fuel yet.

Maybe there's something wrong with the way you are thinking about evolution.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 10:30 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 11:11 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 360 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 331 of 908 (817091)
08-15-2017 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by Faith
08-15-2017 12:30 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Not in any way that contributes to the formation of new species, races, varieties, breeds, etc., which requires some form of selection which requires losing genetic diversity. And if it did keep doing what you claim, you would never have any identifiable species, races, varieties or breeds.

There are about a third of a million separate species of beetle, all presumably descended from a common ancestor.

It is clear to all but creationists that there is more overall diversity among those third of a million species than there was in the original ancestor. Mutations and selection caused this.

Your argument fails for this and many other reasons.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 12:30 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 12:45 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 360 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 333 of 908 (817093)
08-15-2017 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by Faith
08-15-2017 12:45 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
The original beetle probably had no junk DNA for starters and many genes for every trait. That would very likely be quite enough to account for that many different species.

Only a subset of creationists believe things like that.

Scientists (you know, those folks who go where the evidence leads) have concluded otherwise.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 12:45 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 360 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 350 of 908 (817132)
08-15-2017 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Faith
08-15-2017 2:11 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
So I'm not allowed to give an alternative explanation or hypothesis here, only the establishment view is allowed. Well, that figures.

Not all alternatives are of equal value, not are they supported equally by scientific evidence.

"The moon is made of green cheese" is a good example. It is an alternative explanation without any scientific evidence to support it, hence its value is nil.

Many of your "alternatives" fall in the same category.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:11 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:18 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 360 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 352 of 908 (817135)
08-15-2017 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by Faith
08-15-2017 2:18 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
My alternative theory has been very well supported.

Creationist fantasies and scripture are not scientific evidence.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:18 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:23 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 360 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 365 of 908 (817149)
08-15-2017 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by Faith
08-15-2017 2:59 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
What I'm saying is that species in nature appear to be pretty stable, not subject to mutations which keep changing their appearance.

For most species, changes are hard to see, but there are some examples of more rapid speciation which have been given in these threads.

I can see how you might not expect speciation in just 6000 or 4350 years, but we have evidence of over three billion years so there's been lots of time.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:59 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 360 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 397 of 908 (817252)
08-16-2017 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 391 by Faith
08-16-2017 1:32 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Loss is necessary?

Not so. What is necessary is change!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Faith, posted 08-16-2017 1:32 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 360 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 443 of 908 (817337)
08-16-2017 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 442 by DOCJ
08-16-2017 4:56 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Would you rather that science not correct errors?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by DOCJ, posted 08-16-2017 4:56 PM DOCJ has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 446 by DOCJ, posted 08-16-2017 7:02 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 360 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 449 of 908 (817355)
08-16-2017 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by DOCJ
08-16-2017 7:02 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
I think it is important to realize Science is a tool that does provide a way to interpret data. I also think there are more tools in the tool box that provide a better way to interpret the same data and/or data of a different type. Sometimes coupling the tools used to interpret data is best for the job.

But not all ways of interpreting data are of equal value. So far religion, philosophy and similar ways of interpreting real-world data have been immense failures. Science, while not perfect, is finding out things, correcting errors, and producing very useful results.

And of course it's important to note i'm refering to interpreting the origin of all things.

Science has some ideas on this subject, but is still working on it. On the other hand, there are some 40,000 world religions, each with a slightly different or vastly different explanation for origins, and in lot of cases the explanations are mutually exclusive or contradicted by real-world evidence. I don't consider that a very good track record, nor something to be emulated.

Preachers are always complaining that “scientists are playing God,” but all too often, their confusion is the result of preachers playing scientist--The Sensuous Curmudgeon.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by DOCJ, posted 08-16-2017 7:02 PM DOCJ has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 499 by DOCJ, posted 08-17-2017 9:21 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 360 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 504 of 908 (817519)
08-17-2017 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 499 by DOCJ
08-17-2017 9:21 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Regarding religon, you test them to find out which one is correct.

Religions are notorious for not subjecting their beliefs to tests against evidence. Typically, when there is a disagreement over interpretation of scripture or belief, you will get a schism--that's why there are so many different religions and denominations/sects within religions.

It is common to have, for example, young earth believers state that the evidence doesn't matter--if it contradicts the young earth belief the evidence is wrong somehow.

So, thanks, but I'll stick to science and you can have religion and any of those other fuzzy subjects.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by DOCJ, posted 08-17-2017 9:21 PM DOCJ has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 505 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 11:55 PM Coyote has not yet responded
 Message 535 by DOCJ, posted 08-18-2017 7:06 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 360 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 551 of 908 (817687)
08-19-2017 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 542 by Faith
08-19-2017 9:53 AM


Re: Breeding possibilities
I thought the puma and panther were different species that could still interbreed. If not, my mistake.

Does it not sometimes bother you that you make so many basic mistakes in your pronouncements?

Does it ever occur to you, perhaps, that a lot more of your opinions and beliefs may be wrong?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 9:53 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 11:08 AM Coyote has responded

  
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