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Author Topic:   Problems with Mutation and the Evolution of the Sexes
CTD
Member (Idle past 5891 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 28 of 180 (458456)
02-29-2008 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by New Cat's Eye
02-28-2008 10:29 AM


LOL
From your snippet from your link:
quote:
The necessity to repair genetic damage is one of the leading theories explaining the origin of sexual reproduction.
Wow! Now that's insightful. But giving a motive for guiding evolution to produce sexual reproduction doesn't explain how it supposedly evolved.
This is even more ironic/moronic when one considers the ruckus raised about evolution being guided.
Greetings, Lyston. As you can see, evolutionism is still as bankrupt as ever on this topic, and no serious attempt to tackle it is likely to be forthcoming.
"Oh, it'd be so much easier for a mutation to put both male and female in one body than in separate bodies - see, problem solved! And you're ignorant and stupid for thinking it ever might be a problem, BTW." That's what you'll get, only much, much wordier.
I've always thought the funnier part that even if male and female arise in the same place, species, and time; there's an overwhelmingly good chance they wouldn't understand their new roles. You know, with nothing hardwired into the circuits yet they'd still be out of luck.
I notice you've already been "corrected" for not understanding that sex would evolve in a population. Funny part is: mutations happen to individuals. And they don't spread to populations if the individual can't reproduce. But we're too thick to figure that out...
Have as much fun as you can. It can get pretty funky when you bring up an issue that they know for dead certain kills their fantasy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-28-2008 10:29 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Taz, posted 02-29-2008 1:16 AM CTD has not replied
 Message 30 by bluegenes, posted 02-29-2008 4:24 AM CTD has replied
 Message 31 by Vacate, posted 02-29-2008 5:58 AM CTD has not replied
 Message 32 by Percy, posted 02-29-2008 7:26 AM CTD has replied
 Message 36 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-29-2008 3:19 PM CTD has not replied

  
CTD
Member (Idle past 5891 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 37 of 180 (458536)
02-29-2008 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Percy
02-29-2008 7:26 AM


Re: LOL
quote:
In other words, you accused evolution of not being aware of something that is actually one of its defining characteristics.
Nonsense. I was merely pointing out that in a situation where it will serve to give the illusion that a creationist doesn't know what he's talking about, there are individuals who will happily "forget" even the most fundamental and obvious scientific facts.
If I thought evolutionists didn't know this, I would expect it to go over their heads. It didn't because they do know it (when they choose to remember).
quote:
Those like you and Lyston who have no idea what evolution actually says can convince others equally ignorant that evolution has some flaw and then cast ridicule at the strawman you've built.
Strawman? Anyone can see for themselves. Pretending hermaphrodites are easier to evolve doesn't answer the question of how they'd evolve. Explaining WHY evolution would desire to evolve a thing says nothing about HOW it would do so. And meaningless obfuscation is meaningless obfuscation.
Now if anyone can provide a straightforward, direct answer to HOW sexual reproduction could evolve I'd be curious to see it.
Oh, almost left one out: listing different reproductive designs doesn't explain how they could evolve either. It actually means there are that many more creatures evolutionism needs to give account for. Darwin himself said it's required to account for everything, but anyone demanding that it actually do so is routinely accused of "arguing from incredulity".
quote:
Lyston's problems with mutations are mistaken because his understanding of evolution is fatally flawed beyond belief, as apparently is your own.
Your mistake lack of faith for lack of understanding.
Lyston is correct: sexual reproduction has to begin as a mutation or group of mutations in an individual. There's no other way to get the ball rolling. This mutation has to be passed on.
I said:
quote:
I've always thought the funnier part that even if male and female arise in the same place, species, and time; there's an overwhelmingly good chance they wouldn't understand their new roles. You know, with nothing hardwired into the circuits yet they'd still be out of luck.
Perhaps this is what you mean by "strawman"? Well, even if hermaphrodites arose first, they'd need to be hardwired to reproduce after their fashion.
How is "evolution did it" in any way superior to "God did it"? At least God knows what He's doing. Evolution only knows what it's doing when it suits an evolutionist argument, like the one above. Any time evolutionists answer a HOW question with a WHY answer, they attribute motive to their god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Percy, posted 02-29-2008 7:26 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Percy, posted 02-29-2008 6:06 PM CTD has not replied
 Message 39 by bluegenes, posted 02-29-2008 6:48 PM CTD has replied
 Message 44 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-29-2008 8:04 PM CTD has not replied

  
CTD
Member (Idle past 5891 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 40 of 180 (458553)
02-29-2008 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by bluegenes
02-29-2008 4:24 AM


Re:
quote:
Much wordier, indeed. Millions of words have been written about the benefits and costs of sexual reproduction. But in the mind of a superstitious fool, this becomes "no serious attempt to tackle it".
The "it" in my sentence refers to the HOW question. Millions of words about WHY don't count. Evolution's motives are distinct, separate question.
Darwin wrote
quote:
If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.
There has never been a plausible scenario imagined which accounts for the reproductive systems to form by numerous, successive, slight modifications. Pardon me for agreeing on this point with your prophet.
Edited by CTD, : Removed inappropriate residual title

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by bluegenes, posted 02-29-2008 4:24 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-29-2008 7:56 PM CTD has not replied
 Message 42 by iano, posted 02-29-2008 7:57 PM CTD has not replied
 Message 48 by bluegenes, posted 02-29-2008 9:49 PM CTD has replied

  
CTD
Member (Idle past 5891 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 43 of 180 (458560)
02-29-2008 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by bluegenes
02-29-2008 6:48 PM


Not so fast
quote:
There's both a how question and a why one in the O.P.
It's not hard to designate which question one is answering. For example, "Once it was present, natural selection would favor sexual reproduction because..."
This is distinctly different from "Here's how it happened: it happened because..."
I see a little "We might be able to start a story with...", but nothing clear and explanatory, and nothing approaching the full story from no sexual reproduction to the male & female sexes. That's what the O.P. asked for. That's what's required lest Darwin's "theory" break down.
Now the others claim it'd take several small steps, but from the first sentence of message #9 I get the impression you're of the sect that believe evolution can overcome absolutely any odds, no matter how great. If so, you shouldn't have a problem with the "overnight" scenario originally presented.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by bluegenes, posted 02-29-2008 6:48 PM bluegenes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-29-2008 8:29 PM CTD has not replied

  
CTD
Member (Idle past 5891 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 49 of 180 (458573)
02-29-2008 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by bluegenes
02-29-2008 9:49 PM


quote:
Really? Imagined? Imagining evolutionary scenarios is actually quite easy, but finding out how something actually happened takes work.
Did you really miss the word "plausible" in my post? It's still there, and it's if you need to double check.
quote:
So choose a complex organ, and demonstrate that it could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications. It's not something most evolutionists would demand of you, but you seem to be almost volunteering, so go ahead.
Why repeat what's already been done? I couldn't take credit for it. Evolutionists deserve the credit in the case we're discussing. They have clearly shown that they can't account for the reproductive organs. The honest ones actually admit it.
The rest change the subject, or talk about one small aspect and then pretend the whole thing's been explained. Explaining how to get from point Q to point R doesn't explain how to get from point A to point Z. And I personally consider these attempts at evasion to be confessions of failure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by bluegenes, posted 02-29-2008 9:49 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by bluegenes, posted 02-29-2008 11:12 PM CTD has replied
 Message 53 by Admin, posted 03-01-2008 8:51 AM CTD has not replied

  
CTD
Member (Idle past 5891 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 51 of 180 (458586)
03-01-2008 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by bluegenes
02-29-2008 11:12 PM


quote:
You're having English comprehension problems with the Darwin quote.
Not really. I know he was only writing it as part of his snowjob formula: Acknowledge your idea's weak, then proceed to blah blah blah some excuses why the weakness should be overlooked. The whole book follows formats like that.
If the practice goes back to that time, I expect he may well have had his fingers crossed when he wrote it. Or maybe he had some sort of "absolute proof" in mind when he penned the word "demonstrated". If so, he should have indicated it by writing "absolutely demonstrated". His bad.
quote:
But "plausible" hypotheses do not mean "what actually happened", which is much harder to find out.
If it's so easy, I think someone'd be doing it.
Since when has "what actually happened" stopped an evolutionist? Or even slowed one down? These people are feather coating dinosaurs, and their story isn't even plausible yet on that one! BTW, shouldn't the 'ancestors' of mammals be portrayed with fur? (That's a freebie. Y'all're free to run with it if someone hasn't already got it going.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by bluegenes, posted 02-29-2008 11:12 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by bluegenes, posted 03-01-2008 6:12 AM CTD has not replied
 Message 54 by Admin, posted 03-01-2008 9:31 AM CTD has not replied
 Message 96 by FliesOnly, posted 03-03-2008 12:55 PM CTD has not replied

  
CTD
Member (Idle past 5891 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 89 of 180 (458985)
03-03-2008 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Percy
03-01-2008 9:39 AM


Sure...
quote:
That CTD can suggest that evolutionists should have no problem with sudden emergence of something as complex as sexual reproduction again gives the strong impression that he doesn't really understand evolution. Sudden emergence such as this would be the antithesis of evolution and couldn't really be incorporated into its framework.
I made it clear that I was referring to one specific sect. Obviously the rest would have a problem with it, at least initially.
quote:
CTD is again drifting off-topic from the origin of sexual reproduction into the evolution of sexual organs, but no matter.
Ha! Off topic? Not in respect to the topic of the thread. Male and female have sexual organs. Do I perceive the need to lessen the burden and only address the very, very first baby step in that direction as the "origin of sexual reproduction"?
I've had my fill of slanders in this thread. It's clear I'm unwelcome.
quote:
Evolutionists never claim that evolution can overcome any odds.
Yes they do. And wishing won't unify the religion. That sect has posted plenty of their nonsense in this forum. I won't even bother with a search as it's a waste of time confirming something everyone already knows.
quote:
Here CTD counters with an unsupported accusation combined with a misunderstanding of the scientific process. Science advances in small increments, so when seeking the details from A to Z of some process, it is of course natural to proceed incrementally by filling in the details one letter at a time.
The links and posts of this thread provide ample support of my assessment. I've seen one or two good posts that at least appear to be made in good faith and provide information. But they don't provide enough information to satisfactorily answer the questions.
Now it's time to reassess the value of time spent participating on this forum, where half of what I say is intentionally misportrayed and truth is unwelcome. (See msg #52, for just one lame example. I'll not waste more time responding.)
Lastly, Admin uses the term "devolve" in msg 53. Seems very anachronistic if "ALL change = evolution". Why waste time typing the "d"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Percy, posted 03-01-2008 9:39 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Admin, posted 03-03-2008 7:39 AM CTD has not replied
 Message 91 by bluegenes, posted 03-03-2008 8:30 AM CTD has not replied

  
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