|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Question on evolutionary Rates | |||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
How is it possible for Modern man to evolve from Eukaryotic Cells in only 7500 speciations when it took 11,500 to go from single cell to Eukaryotic Cells? Not all Eukaryotic Cells life is multi-cellular. Eukaryotic Cells first evolved as single cell life forms, about 2 billion years ago (although it can be - and is - argued that this was developed by one cell being absorbed inside another to create a new kind of single cell). Then it only took 0.5 billion years to form the first mutlicellular life. But why is this (change over time) a problem? Look at those Eukaryotic Cells and see if there is any substantial difference between them: what is inside a single cell life cell is inside the multi-cell life cell. The change from original cell form to Eukaryotic Cells is actually much more significant, as this adds several features to make these "modern" cells. Think of the time it takes a child to learn to stack one block on top of another, and then the time needed to make a stack 3, 4, 5 blocks high. All multicellular life develops from single cells, it's just a matter of stacking the cells up to make a multicellular life. What you really need to look at is the formation of the basic body plan of an interactive multicellular life as opposed to one that is a group of similar function cells. Once you have a basic body plan then all you need is variations on a theme.
That leaves 7500 speciations to get to modern man, from Eukaryotic Cells. Don't confuse the existence of man with the need for man to be a result. Functionally man is no different than the first mammal, which is functionally no different than the first reptile, which is ... etc. And don't confuse a minimum with average or expect evidence from one example to apply to others: the evidence from the forams only applies to the forams that stayed forams (the data group of the study), so there could be undocumented speciation events where forams became no-longer-forams (perhaps they ditched their shells eh?). We also do not have any figures for speciation rates when sexual selection is a factor. The evidence from human history is that this can significantly alter the rate of mutation selection -- just the difference in fixed genes between man and chimps shows this. The more you break the development over time scale down the more you will see that only small steps are needed. Hope that helps. Enjoy. compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Actually, the meaning of "species" is pretty ill-defined for organisms that do not reproduce sexually. Where do you get the "200,000 years per speciation" from? Foraminifers are sexual and asexual, but not conscious (so sexual selection not a factor). The rate comes fromarticle 8 quote: compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
If they could have provided a detailed trail with the formas forking off and becoming some other family of creature they would have been heros. Why? There is plenty of evidence for this happening, so it would not add anything new to the concept of evolution or the evidence for it. The foraminifera are also an order not just a species, so there are changes at the family level too (between species and order). If you want an example of species evolving into a substantially different species try horses. Part of this depends on what you think is distinctive enough of a difference ...
abe: this is copied from another thread that is not open to general discussion. We can talk about horses and the distinctive development of the modern horse and single-toe hoof from the splayed toed dog sized "eohippus": http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/...ci/vertpaleo/fhc/relatives10.htm (2)
quote: Check the above link to see images of the legs of four different horse ancestors. You can see a splayed toe stance for Hyracotherium and Miohippus but a single toe stance in Merychippus and Equus. http://www.geocities.com/...rk/7841/horse_evol/eohippus.html (1)
quote: The coloration is pure speculation, of course, but the size and stance are based on the physiology of the skeleton. Now lets also look at the Condylarth: Paleocene mammals of the world (3)
quote: This is the most "horse-like" image from this site, and it looks much more like a dog than a horse eh? Of course the coloration and fur are speculation, but the size and stance are again based on the physiology of the skeleton. To see what the skeletons looked like for the four species used for the leg examples at the start we go to: http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/vertpaleo/fhc/Stratmap1.htm (2)
quote: I selected the same species as were listed for the legs above for convenience here - on the original link you select by clicking on the skulls. So we have a sequence of species that starts with one standing on the fleshy pads of several splayed toes to the modern species that stands not just on one toe but on the toe-nail of that single toe. But that is not all: http://muextension.missouri.edu/...agguides/ansci/g02740.htm (4)
quote: This is much more difference in a feature than "just an increase in length" (as in an elephants trunk), it is a totally different structure to stand on (eohippus stood on his toes pads, equus stands on a hoof which not only is not a toe pad, but a feature that wasn't present in the eohippus) and it incorporates a new {added\changed} structure to increase blood flow by acting as a secondary pump. Not only that the effect of changing the foot structure from a flat footed splayed toed eohippus to the single toed equus also involves standing the foot up on the tip of the toe and using each of the bones between the tip and the heel to effectively make the leg longer for faster running while also making it more flexible than just adding length to the bones of the leg. Probably useful for getting through tight spots and to keep from tripping ... it certainly helps horses jumping in shows from hitting that top bar. Totally different foot structure, coupled with totally different leg structure (with some ex toe bones now effectively used as leg bones). The question again is how much change is enough? Try walking around the house on the tip of one toe, then compare your foot to that of eohippus. Enjoy. References:
Edited by RAZD, : abe compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
This a contentious issue, some people argue that plants can have sexual selection, so I can't imagine they would except Foraminifers. True. And one could argue that sexual selection also goes on in mosquitoes and the like via variations in the sexual organs\fit. Perhaps what I mean is conscious\unconscious selection - based on some mental perception. So the question is where does run-away sexual selection fit on the conscious\unconscious scheme of things? This would represent the fast-tracked selection process that, imh(ysa)o, would show a faster than normal rate of fixing selected mutations. Thanks. compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
It shows 15 different species within 8 levels. It shows 15 different genera (several species). That's why the different first part of the scientific names. Look at Equus: http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/vertpaleo/fhc/equus1.htm
quote: And there are extinct species within Equus. One within modern times (recorded history). Not all genera represented by multiple species (eg - man) but most are (else why create a different genus? It's an arbitrary distinction).
It does not appear that the horse went very fast. When you include the species within the genus categories then it does appear that horse was faster than shown here, though the chart isn't detailed to the species level (the way foraminifera were, nor is the foraminifera data broken down by genera). It does not appear that horse ancestors engaged in the type of run-away sexual selection for specific traits that I was talking about either -- there is no sexual dimorphism beyond a slight difference in size (and that is due to dominant male herding behavior) -- and no "peacock tail" features. When we look at man we do see sexual dimorphism and "peacock tail" features: bare-appearing skin, long head hair, large creative brain, large sexual organs, and the like -- more extreme than in any other ape or primate, and some (bare skin, long hair, large brain) extreme to the point of threatening survival of those with the features. This to me is a significant element of human evolution since the common ancestor with chimps.
The question remains with only 7500 levels how did modern man evolve from the Eukaryotic Cells. The Abbott and Costello (and 3 stooges, and other vaudeville acts) way Step by step, slowly he turns .... Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : fix quote and plural compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
genius that I am. I knew something was wrong ... as general feeling ...
Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
we see a pretty good transition from basically an upright chimp to humans in only 10 species ... Especially when {A} is a modern semi-upright chimp
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
RAZD's horse took 66 million years to develop. fromto I am supposed to believe man did it from chimps in 2.6 million years. From ~B to N(from 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 1) quote: One species of forams remained the same for 500,000 years.
While chimps go from ~B to A (thus demonstrating that large changes are not necessary over time and that rates are different in different species under different selection pressures).
Like I said that is too much to swallow. Your problem, not necessary for those that look at the evidence. Enjoy. compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024