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Author Topic:   How can evolution explain body symmetry?
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6050 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 112 of 284 (191962)
03-16-2005 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by contracycle
03-16-2005 10:36 AM


strong bat esophagous
From that observation I propose a rule from first principles: there will be no organisms found with anuses higher than their mouths.
Interesting idea, but in need of major revision, I think.
First, it would seem to be that the position of the stomach relative to the mouth would be more important, since we aren't significantly assisted by gravity for passage of (ex)food from our stomach to our anus - in fact a significant portion of our GI tract is orientated so that the fecal matter is moving against gravity (hence the "ascending colon"). Also, we retain the ability to pass food from mouth-to-stomach standing on our heads.
Also, this rule assumes that organisms maintain a standard orientation relative to gravity. There are plenty of organisms that have no such orientation - worms, many insects and aquatic creatures.
Additionally, there are many organisms that spend feeding time with their stomachs or anuses higher than their mouths - many bats feed while hanging upside down.
Perhaps a more testable (and less general) idea is that organisms' potential esophageal peristaltic force will correlate in a meaningful way with their standard mouth-stomach orientation during feeding. In other words, a bat should have greater peristaltic force than a rat.
I think this sort of analysis would test your essential concept of evolution of gastrointestinal characters relative to orientation to gravity - definitely much better than counting the heights of mouths and anuses...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by contracycle, posted 03-16-2005 10:36 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by contracycle, posted 03-17-2005 6:15 AM pink sasquatch has replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6050 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 118 of 284 (192121)
03-17-2005 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by contracycle
03-17-2005 6:15 AM


strong bat output
I did think about that, but decided that bats and similar might well excrete only when upright, and so not need unusually strong peristaltic muscles.
Sorry - I thought you were arguing that gravity aided the passage of food from mouth to anus; now I'm not sure what you mean. Perhaps that gravity aids food falling into our mouths and feces falling out of our asses? Then all that should matter is that most mouths/inputs face upwards, and most anuses/outputs face downwards, which is not the case.
Also, in terms of the rising colon, the bolus I would think is in receipt of significant suspension by the body tissues, even without actual peristalsis, and so this may not impose a significant cost.
This is quite off - without peristalsis the GI tract fills and expands until it ruptures, killing the organism (as in Hirschsprung disease).
Gravity has a significant effect on internal organs other objects/fluids within our bodies. It seems like you are stating that the opposite is true - "suspension by the body tissues", whatever that means, doesn't negate gravity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by contracycle, posted 03-17-2005 6:15 AM contracycle has replied

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 Message 125 by contracycle, posted 03-18-2005 7:26 AM pink sasquatch has not replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6050 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 122 of 284 (192141)
03-17-2005 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by mick
03-17-2005 12:37 PM


first asymmetry establishing system in embryos
I came across an interesting editorial in Nature regarding the development of assymetry in vertebrates. Apparently the basic problem is that the early developing embryo has no blood circulatory system, so it uses cilia which waft fluids around the "body". I guess it's more efficient to waft fluids in a circulatory manner, so the cilia all move in the same direction and circulate body fluids in an anticlockwise direction.
Hi Mick-
This is a fascinating example of asymmetrical development that I wish I would have remembered to bring up - though you haven't quite got the details correct if I remember correctly. The apparent purpose of the rotating cilia is not to circulate blood, but rather to move small signaling molecules, resulting in an asymmetrical gradient of 'signal'.
The findings discussed are exciting because they explain how asymmetry can arise from a symmetrical biological environment: In the case you cite a triangular field of cells protrude cilia into a small fluid filled area; the cilia all rotate in the same direction. At this point the field of cells (including cell biology and gene expression) is uniformly symmetrical. However, the beating of the cilia causes small molecules to build up at one end of the fluid filled space, given the cilia force combined with the shape of that space. Signaling molecules concentrate at one side of the space, inducing gene expression and cellular biology changes in the cells at the side of the space. Thus, asymmetrical gene expression has arisen from a symmetrical biological structure. Further development can now build upon this initial asymmetry to produce the asymmetry of the adult organism.
If nothing else, you've reiterated a very important point to this thread - all mammals are developmentally asymmetrical. This doesn't mean one eye is slightly lower than the other, but that entire organ systems must develop asymmetrically to allow basic function.
When symmetry makes an organism more fit, it is selected for, as in most external aspects of the human body (testicles, for one, are an exception).
When asymmetry makes an organism more fit, it is selected for, as in many internal organ systems of the body, including the circulatory and digestive systems.
These results are exactly what evolution theory would predict. Thus the theory of evolution can explain both symmetry and asymmetry quite well.

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 Message 121 by mick, posted 03-17-2005 12:37 PM mick has not replied

  
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