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Author Topic:   IC & the Cambrian Explosion for Ahmad...cont..
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 3916 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 166 of 199 (32203)
02-14-2003 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by peter borger
02-13-2003 6:16 PM


Hybrid? Not likely - Cryptogale is extinct, and is considered representative of the ancestral (not necessarily the ancestor) form of the Tenrecomorpha. Both the Tenrecinae and the Oryzorictinae are highly derived (i.e., modern versions with specific and distinctive changes). They didn't live at the same time. The point is that Cryptogale is intermediate in morphology between higher-level taxonomic groupings - which creationists claim is impossible, and would apparently be impossible under the MPG idea. Which, of course, is why I asked whether Cryptogale represented the MPG of the Tenrecomorpha...
This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by peter borger, posted 02-13-2003 6:16 PM peter borger has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by peter borger, posted 02-14-2003 8:08 PM Quetzal has responded

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 3239 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 167 of 199 (32207)
02-14-2003 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by peter borger
02-13-2003 6:19 PM


Peter B,

quote:
PB: Ages ago you gave your definaition of TF and I sid Show me the money. You did, I guess, so what's the fuss about?

So we agree our terms, then?

Mark

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by peter borger, posted 02-13-2003 6:19 PM peter borger has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by peter borger, posted 02-14-2003 11:14 AM mark24 has responded

    
peter borger
Member (Idle past 5709 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 168 of 199 (32236)
02-14-2003 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by mark24
02-14-2003 4:58 AM


Hi Mark,

In message #65 you say:

"A transitional is a form that possesses characters, or character states that are part way between two separate taxa.? "

PB: Is this your definition of a TF?

Best wishes,
Peter


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by mark24, posted 02-14-2003 4:58 AM mark24 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by mark24, posted 02-14-2003 4:14 PM peter borger has not yet responded

    
mark24
Member (Idle past 3239 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 169 of 199 (32284)
02-14-2003 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by peter borger
02-14-2003 11:14 AM


Peter B,

quote:
Is this your definition of a TF?

I have amended it to be:

"A transitional is a form that possesses character states that are part way between two separate taxa, &/or a mix of discrete characters between two taxa."

Any evo's disagree, or would like to make an addition?

Mark

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

[This message has been edited by mark24, 02-14-2003]

[This message has been edited by mark24, 02-14-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by peter borger, posted 02-14-2003 11:14 AM peter borger has not yet responded

    
peter borger
Member (Idle past 5709 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 170 of 199 (32301)
02-14-2003 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Quetzal
02-14-2003 2:28 AM


Hi Quetzal

Interesting stuff. Can you show me the fossils/figures? Couodn't find them on internet. TiA.

Best wishes,
Peter


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Quetzal, posted 02-14-2003 2:28 AM Quetzal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Quetzal, posted 02-15-2003 4:37 AM peter borger has responded

    
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 3916 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 171 of 199 (32318)
02-15-2003 4:37 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by peter borger
02-14-2003 8:08 PM


For this one I think you'll have to go to a library and check out a recent edition of Caroll's "Vertebrate Paleontology". I'm not sure what is available on line, if anything. You might try a search for phylogeny Afrotheria Tenrecomorpha.

However, the question I asked is a simple yes or no: based on what you've been told, scientists classifiy Cryptogale as a transitional. Does it represent a MPG, thus falsifying common descent under your scenario?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by peter borger, posted 02-14-2003 8:08 PM peter borger has responded

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peter borger
Member (Idle past 5709 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 172 of 199 (32344)
02-15-2003 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Quetzal
02-15-2003 4:37 AM


Dear Quetzal,

Q: For this one I think you'll have to go to a library and check out a recent edition of Caroll's "Vertebrate Paleontology". I'm not sure what is available on line, if anything. You might try a search for phylogeny Afrotheria Tenrecomorpha.

PB: At last we find a TF and it is not even a Nature paper? How peculiar. Probably nothing transitional here, but a lot of speculation. However, I will check it out. Thanks for the ref.

Best wishes,
Peter


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 Message 173 by mark24, posted 02-15-2003 8:13 PM peter borger has responded

    
mark24
Member (Idle past 3239 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 173 of 199 (32347)
02-15-2003 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by peter borger
02-15-2003 7:40 PM


Peter,

Do we agree terms, or what?

Mark

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by peter borger, posted 02-15-2003 7:40 PM peter borger has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by peter borger, posted 02-15-2003 11:02 PM mark24 has responded

    
peter borger
Member (Idle past 5709 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 174 of 199 (32348)
02-15-2003 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by mark24
02-15-2003 8:13 PM


Dear mark,

You say:

I have amended it to be:

"A transitional is a form that possesses character states that are part way between two separate taxa, &/or a mix of discrete characters between two taxa."

Any evo's disagree, or would like to make an addition?

PB: I am waiting for the general agreement of evo's. Furthermore, I am afraid that we also have to define 'character', 'taxa', 'mix' and 'discrete characters'. And "part between" is very, very vague. Let's define it too.

Best wishes,
Peter


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by mark24, posted 02-15-2003 8:13 PM mark24 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by mark24, posted 02-16-2003 5:23 AM peter borger has not yet responded

    
mark24
Member (Idle past 3239 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 175 of 199 (32353)
02-16-2003 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by peter borger
02-15-2003 11:02 PM


Peter,

quote:
PB: I am waiting for the general agreement of evo's. Furthermore, I am afraid that we also have to define 'character', 'taxa', 'mix' and 'discrete characters'. And "part between" is very, very vague. Let's define it too.

Does any evo have any criticism of the following definition & defined terms? Comments welcome, even “looks good to me” is appreciated

"A transitional is a form that possesses character states that are part way between two separate taxa, &/or a mix of discrete characters between two taxa."

Character: The physical state of a part of the organism whilst it was living.

Discrete character: The existence of a separate & distinct physical state as part of the organism. Describing an on/off condition rather than a variable one.

Taxa: Biological classification of organisms forming a nested hierarchy of “ranks”. Any rank is relevant from Kingdom to species.

Mix: A combination of.

“Part way”: A condition between two extremes.

Mark

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by peter borger, posted 02-15-2003 11:02 PM peter borger has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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edge
Member
Posts: 4451
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 176 of 199 (32370)
02-16-2003 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by mark24
02-16-2003 5:23 AM


quote:
Does any evo have any criticism of the following definition & defined terms? Comments welcome, even “looks good to me” is appreciated

"A transitional is a form that possesses character states that are part way between two separate taxa, &/or a mix of discrete characters between two taxa."

Character: The physical state of a part of the organism whilst it was living.

Discrete character: The existence of a separate & distinct physical state as part of the organism. Describing an on/off condition rather than a variable one.

Taxa: Biological classification of organisms forming a nested hierarchy of “ranks”. Any rank is relevant from Kingdom to species.

Mix: A combination of.

“Part way”: A condition between two extremes.


I would say that the lack of an earlier response indicates general agreement, but then that's just my definition of 'general agreement'.

The only thing I might add is that usually a TF shows up in the fossil record at an appropriate time to be a transitional. I'm not sure if this is crucial to the discussion at hand, but it is a factor that creationists usually have a hard time explaining and would rather ignore.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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derwood
Member
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 177 of 199 (32444)
02-17-2003 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by edge
02-16-2003 11:08 AM


Sounds OK to me.

I am still waiting for empirical evidence of the existence of creatons and morphogenic fields, myself...


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 Message 176 by edge, posted 02-16-2003 11:08 AM edge has not yet responded

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mark24
Member (Idle past 3239 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 178 of 199 (32445)
02-17-2003 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by derwood
02-17-2003 12:26 PM


Thank you gentlemen, Mr Borger, do you agree?

Mark

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by derwood, posted 02-17-2003 12:26 PM derwood has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by peter borger, posted 02-17-2003 8:24 PM mark24 has responded

    
peter borger
Member (Idle past 5709 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 179 of 199 (32503)
02-17-2003 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by mark24
02-17-2003 12:31 PM


dear Mark,

Go ahead, make my day

Peter


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by mark24, posted 02-17-2003 12:31 PM mark24 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by mark24, posted 02-18-2003 9:00 AM peter borger has responded

    
mark24
Member (Idle past 3239 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 180 of 199 (32543)
02-18-2003 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by peter borger
02-17-2003 8:24 PM


Peter,

Do you agree with the definition?

Mark

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by peter borger, posted 02-17-2003 8:24 PM peter borger has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by mark24, posted 02-26-2003 5:48 PM mark24 has not yet responded
 Message 182 by peter borger, posted 02-26-2003 8:38 PM mark24 has responded

    
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