Harun Yahya's Webpage

Welcome to EvC.The use of the word "denies" was OK.The use of the words "explains", "scientifically", "hazard", "harmony", "designer", "proves", "differentiate from animals", "ideology" will be heavily contested and you will find that you'll have a PRETTY hard time defending them here.Good luck anyway,

Hi there Aldebaranstar, and welcome to EvC. It is certainly interesting to have an Islamic creationist input here.Looking at the page you cite in your latest message, one thing stands out to me. Yahya then goes on to refute this position by citing the Big Bang theory. Unfortunately, he is refuting a straw-man, that is to say a position that is not actually held by those he is seeking to criticise. Most people today, who would describe themselves as materialists, would agree with the Big Bang theory as being a compelling explanation for the origin of the universe. Very few would insist upon a universe of infinite antiquity, with no beginning or end.Essentially Yahya is arguing against a nineteenth century view of materialism as though it were a modern one. In doing so, he is wasting his time. The argument has moved on, but it seems that he would rather argue against those long dead.It is quite possible and indeed very widespread, to believe that the universe had a specific beginning, yet not believe that this is any kind of evidence for an intelligent creator. I find it hard to believe that Yahya is unaware that materialism has moved on. This echoes Dr. Adequate's contention that Yahya must be lying on purpose, or simply giving lectures on subjects of which he is deeply ignorant. Either way, I am sadly forced to conclude that he is being dishonest.

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Mutate and Survive

At first click, it opens an additional pop-up. This is my first clue that something is wacky.Then I find that the pop-up is for his store and this means that the first thing I have ever heard from this man is: "buy something from me."I conclude that he is a liar that is trying to scam people out of money.I don't even need to go any further than that.Although I did click on you second link, marked Link 1.This yields the same store's pop-up advertisement. What a scam!

Hello EvC-Users.First of, I would like to thank you for the warm welcome you have given Aldebaranstar, who happens to be my wife. I really appreciate that, especially the detailed deconstructions of Haruns "scientific" proofs.Concerning Harun, the two of us are a bit at odds. Although he also writes about a few other things related to Islam, his main topics all revolve around the conflict between Evolution(ism) and Creationism.Currently I am trying to deconstruct each of his so called "proofs" that ToE is wrong one by one, at least the ones where he tries to be scientific. I'm not even going into topics related to Satanism or Materialism. Yet.
But, just to make that clear, I am a Muslim (converted, *waves at CIA*) and I believe there IS a Creator. The fact that ToE works without divine assistance (but still needing the random mutation, now and then) does not exclude the existence of God.
Actually, no scientific theory has an impact on God, since he is not fathomable with science. You may find God, ;-) but you cannot measure, weigh, proof or disproof him/her/it.
I personally believe that ToE is the means, by which God changes his creatures, just like Kepler (is it Kepler? I'm not sure) described how the planets move. Interestingly, no Creationist objects to physical theories, although they also make a Creator obsolete (instead of the hand of God, one now has gravity pushing the planets around)@Catholic Scientist: Yeah, well he actually has a popup (had to use IE to find it), but since ALL of his books are available as PDF-Downloads also, I do not think he is trying to scam people.
I rather have the impression that he has been somehow traumatized by something, that he relates to the ToE, and now he is striking back.And yes, he does wear flashy clothes. But he is not an interior designer, he broke off his studies.

Us Christians refer to that as Theistic Evolutionist <--- clicky The first time I "met" the man, he says: "Hey! Buy something!" Then he should be talking about that instead of "striking back", that's suspicious.He can't win though, the ToE is solid. Consider them deconstructed. For real, evolution happed. That's even more suspicious. He's promoting himself. Trying to make a buck. The Creo/Evo debate is a hot topic these days Like I said, I know he can't win the debate. I also realize that he can make money off people who will send him money because the people are gullible enough to believe his "proofs" (because they fear the imaginary repercussion that they won't be able to believe in god anymore {which I consider to be weak faith}). But I digress in my assessment.We Christians have plenty of those guys too, and its a shame.

Hi Aldebaranstar. A hearty welcome to EvC. I hope you will find this site a place where you will want to spend some time. If you click on my Buzsaw username you will find the Buzsaw index where you will likely be able to go back and find some of the input I've contributed on the religion Islam, the prophet Mohammed, the Sunnahs Haddith and Quran etc.I have been a Christian for over 60 years since age 10 and I've been researching about your religion for the last few decades on the side. I was debating a Muslim person a few days right up until 9/11 on the old Newsmax forum. My position was that the prophet Mohammed and his successors grew the religion by the sword violently and so forth. Of course 9/11 drove my position home and he didn't return to finish the debate.I am looking over your links and finding them interesting. Some of the positions are somewhat similar to my own Buzsaw Hypothesis which you can get a handle on by going to my ongoing Great Debate with Minnemooseous.What I want to begin with regarding some claims Islam makes regarding origins is that they are Johnny Come Lately in that this creation hypothesis is basically Biblical relative to the Biblical Judeo-Christian god, Jehovah (English for Hebrew YHWH or Yahweh) and the Biblical Jehovah version came millenniums earlier than the Quranish Muslim god Allah's via his prophet Mohammed.My position has always been that the Biblical God Jehovah and the Muslim god Allah are not one and the same god in that they are both proper names (Sirnames) of gods, have different meanings. The Biblical god, Jehovah which was in all the ancient manuscripts over 6000 times is not mentioned once in the Quran to my knowledge.This would not be a topic for this thread but in the EvC archives, again you can go back in my Buzsaw index profile and find a thread on the names often used relative to the Biblical god Jehovah.The reason I've brought it up here is that IMO, the original Biblical creation record is the one which supersedes that of the Quran and the prophet Mohammed

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

quote:

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I rather have the impression that he has been somehow traumatized by something, that he relates to the ToE, and now he is striking back.

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An incredibly large volume of writings carries the name "Harun Yahya". For more than any individual could produce. It is strongly suspected that he is more of a poster boy for a group of Turkish Islam creationists with an aggressive agenda to push creationism.

Or perhaps using Islamic creationism to advertize/promote his sect of Islam on this site, evo/creo being what would get him in the door to promote and move on.HELLO ALDEBARANSTAR. YOU STILL WITH US?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

While it's true that no scientific knowledge disproves the idea that a God of some kind created the universe, as a Muslim, your God is not only the creator of the universe, but also the author of the Qur'an. There, you might have some problems with science.For example, from "The Cattle":

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[6.97] And He it is Who has made the stars for you that you might follow the right way thereby in the darkness of the land and the sea; truly We have made plain the communications for a people who know.

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You're a main of faith, obviously, and it must take a great deal of faith to believe that such words can be attributed to an all seeing all knowing God. Easy to believe that they're the words of a seventh century human being who did not know that there were trillions of stars that he could not see, though.Incidentally, isn't it true that you can no longer easily exercise your freedom to choose another religion or philosophy as you have in the past, as the punishment for apostasy is death? As a Muslim, you must presumably agree with this punishment. Would you do your duty, and carry out the sentence on an apostate from Islam, I wonder?Or are you in favour of moderating the punishment to imprisonment, as they do in Malaysia at the moment?Or are you perhaps one of the liberal Muslims who thinks that the punishment of apostates contradicts a verse in the Qur'an that says that there should be no coercion in religion?If so, isn't the indoctrination of children coercion?Would you support the idea of freedom of speech in predominantly Islamic countries, or do you think that Islam should be protected from criticism?I'm asking questions because I think that followers of all religions that claim to be "true" religions should explain and defend their views, as such claims automatically lead to forms of bigotry.{ABE}To relate this to the topic, Harun has an irritating tendency of quoting verses from the Qur'an as evidence against science. This conflicts with a scientific approach, which would require evidence that the Qur'an is anything other than the words of a human being who knew very little of the universe. If religious factions are going to criticise scientific theories, and make shrill demands for evidence to back those theories, the same level of evidence should be presented for the veracity of the religion concerned, and it never is.It's easy for someone to claim to be speaking the word of God, so the claim has no authority in itself.Edited by bluegenes, : No reason given.Edited by bluegenes, : spelling

If he is its a pretty risky scam. Harun Yayhya's organisation sent out free copies of his 'Atlas of Creation' to universities and schools throughout Europe and the US. I don't see how they will make money out of this without some pretty hefty orders from bible colleges, and I would suspect most of them are already ordering their copies of 'The Design of Life'.TTFN,WK

Satan inspired rubbish, of course, to Harun.People say that Empires used to operate "divide and rule" policies, but in fact, they generally exploited divisions that were already there.From the science education point of view, the more divisions in creationism, the better. Exploit and highlight those divisions, and you'll rule.The divisions are inevitable. Because religious beliefs aren't evidence based, anyone can make up anything they want to. That's why, if you look at the history of the Abrahamic religions, it's like a tree, with Judaism as the trunk, Christianity forking off, and then Islam forking off Christianity, then all three religions dividing out into the numerous branches and twigs of chronic disagreement.In science, on the other hand, divisions always have to reunite in the direction of the evidence as it comes in, which is your strength, and why you science boys always win in the long run.I'd like to see Christian creationists debating Muslim creationists on EvC. Two different magic books involved, both claiming to be the word of God.

Okay now.@Buzsaw: I have read a few other posts from you. I do not like your approach, which is entirely based on semantics and linguistic contortions. End of Comment.@bluegenes Woah, hold your horses. Where in the verse does it say, that God ONLY created those stars we can see? It simply say, that the stars are for humans to navigate by, which they have been used for quite some time until GPS. If ever we humans will leave our solar system, they probably will be used for navigation again. You might think the Qur'an (Bible, Torah) are fairy tale books, but THIS specific verse is no proof. But this is OT, anyway.As to the other things, I am a "liberal Muslim", if you have to put a label on me, if anyone chooses to leave Islam, thats between them and God.Teaching children about religion is part of education and should not be called "indoctrination".Freedom of speech is important, but must be checked sometimes. I think that the people that want to "protect" Islam from criticism are afraid that Islam would be weakened. This, IMHO, shows a weak faith and small understanding of Islam. So, yes, Islam should be criticized, just to show that all criticism will fail.Well, on Mr. Yahya we agree, Can't help you there. I am not creo nor a evo, I'm a thevo ;-)

Please focus on the topic and leave personal issues aside. If you have problems or concerns about a person or post, please post a note to Windsor castle.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Not proof, I agree. But it's a common and highly subjective human view that the immense universe was made for our convenience, and I was saying that attributing words like those to an all seeing all knowing creator of the universe requires great faith.In the cases of religious claims, like someone claiming to speak the word of God, the burden of proof is not on those of us with a healthy cynicism towards such claims. I'm sure there are plenty of epileptics alive today who make similar claims, and claims made for someone who lived 1400 years ago are no more likely to be true. I agree that it's drifting a bit from the topic, but it comes from Harun's irritating habit of presenting the contents of the qur'an as evidence for things like man's separation from other animals. It's evidence of one man's opinion on that subject, and Mohamed didn't know any modern biology.I realise that you disagree with Harun on this, and that the two of you, therefore, believe in different creator Gods who created in different ways. Teaching children facts about the world's religions and their tenets is certainly part of education. Teaching children that any one of those religions is the true religion is indoctrination, and should certainly be described as indoctrination. I agree. I agree that it shows a weak faith, but the obvious presence of all this weak faith and the obvious necessity of all religions to indoctrinate kids doesn't seem to fit your conclusions that open criticism will fail.Interestingly, as your wife seems to support Harun, and you seem to be an Islamic evolutionist, we seem to have picked up two interesting angles on the EvC topic simultaneously from the same family! I hope it doesn't cause domestic strife.Welcome to EvC.

Wouldn't that be both creo and evo instead of neither?I believe that evolution has occured and that that is the method that god used to create us.So since I believe that god did create us, shouldn't I be considered a creationist?The problem is that the term is commonly used to describe Young Earth Creationists and not just people who believe god created us, in general.I guess my point is that you are a creationist, although you prolly aren't a Creationist^TM