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Author Topic:   Why There Are Two Sexes
miosim
Member (Idle past 3750 days)
Posts: 57
From: NH, USA
Joined: 04-07-2007


Message 16 of 63 (446487)
01-06-2008 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by RAZD
01-06-2008 9:32 AM


RAZD,

I am not knowledgeable in the field of population genetics to judge correctness of Vigen Geodakyan’s theories.

More than 25 years ago, I first read the popular article (brilliantly written, but unfortunately not translated to Enflish)
SHE and HE
and later following few of Geodakyan’s scientific publications, I was impressed with the clarity of his thinking, elegance, simplicity a boldness of his prediction.

One example of his idea from onother popular magazine
WHY TWO SEXES?

“… A good sculptor, before making a sculpture out of marble, will create many models out of clay. Nature acts similarly. Like a sculptor, nature first creates a large variety of males (clay models), testing them and selecting good variants to implement later in females (marble sculpture). Thus, in a population, new qualities first appear among the males and may afterward appear among the females…”
… Thus, if the male and the female are distinct from each other in some quality, say in the height or color, one may predict the direction of change; namely, the quality is changing in the direction from the female to the male. For example, if males are bigger than the females, then there is an evolutionary tendency for size to increase in the species. In the other case, if males are smaller than females, the species evolves to have smaller specimens.
We may conjecture that humans are becoming taller at this stage of history, because an average man is taller than an average woman (Fig. 5). Among the spiders, the tendency must be opposite, because their males are smaller than the females. The anthropologists and entomologists believe this is the case: mankind is growing … “

Based on his theory Vigen Geodakyan’s predicted the distribution of the gender related diseases that, as I understood, were conformed later by other authors.

Bur again, I never followed closely this sorts of research, because I was interested in the most general aspects of biological system development only and was just temporarily diverted from my main subject. Also I am opposing indiscriminate use of methodology of Supreme Purpose that Vigen Geodakyan’s employed at full extend.

Am I missing something? They seem to be the same essay. Same as in the OP too.

Yes, they are the same links as in the PO (just reminder, PO itself not the same as an essay). Depending of the preferred level of discussion, you may want to read the essay “Why There Are Two Sexes” or more expended and formal its version “DNA asymmetric gene activity”.

Again there are several organisms where there are more than two sexes.

My theoretical model also expects that in some circumstances, more that two sexes may exist (more than one cell merging process, but didn't try to find them, but keep focus on the most typical cases. Can you present your examples?

Why use sex if you want to talk about differentiation (doesn't that just confuse the issue)?.

I do not know if you can follow the sexual development described in my hypothesis without understanding the proposed mechanism of cell differentiation?

Edited by miosim, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminModulous, : fixed urls

Edited by miosim, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by RAZD, posted 01-06-2008 9:32 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by RAZD, posted 01-06-2008 2:11 PM miosim has responded
 Message 23 by RAZD, posted 01-06-2008 6:12 PM miosim has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19754
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 17 of 63 (446492)
01-06-2008 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by miosim
01-06-2008 1:52 PM


format links please
type:
[url=insert your url here]this message is linked to an url[/url]
and it becomes:
this message is linked to an url
Please edit the ones you have in Message 16 so we can read the page.

Edited by RAZD, : 16


This message is a reply to:
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miosim
Member (Idle past 3750 days)
Posts: 57
From: NH, USA
Joined: 04-07-2007


Message 18 of 63 (446517)
01-06-2008 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by RAZD
01-06-2008 2:11 PM


Re: format links please
Sorry RASD,

I thought it is readable enough, but any way, I am repeating the portion that relates to the links.

More than 25 years ago, I first read the popular article (brilliantly written, but unfortunately not translated to English) SHE and HE and later following few of Geodakyan’s scientific publications, I was impressed with the clarity of his thinking, elegance, simplicity and the boldness of his predictions. One example of his idea from another popular article
WHY TWO SEXES?

To view these links you need MS word. I hope, you do not have problem with that.

Edited by miosim, : No reason given.

Edited by miosim, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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 Message 20 by jar, posted 01-06-2008 3:16 PM miosim has responded

    
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 714 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 19 of 63 (446523)
01-06-2008 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by miosim
01-06-2008 2:53 PM


Re: format links please
M, please do as RAZD suggests and format your links.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by miosim, posted 01-06-2008 2:53 PM miosim has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 63 (446524)
01-06-2008 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by miosim
01-06-2008 2:53 PM


Re: format links please
The links in Message 16.


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by miosim, posted 01-06-2008 2:53 PM miosim has responded

Replies to this message:
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miosim
Member (Idle past 3750 days)
Posts: 57
From: NH, USA
Joined: 04-07-2007


Message 21 of 63 (446537)
01-06-2008 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
01-06-2008 3:16 PM


Re: format links please
Is it still problem with the link? It could be that your request and my action happened in the same time.
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 Message 20 by jar, posted 01-06-2008 3:16 PM jar has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 63 (446539)
01-06-2008 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by miosim
01-06-2008 3:39 PM


Re: format links please
Much betterer. Thanks.


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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 Message 21 by miosim, posted 01-06-2008 3:39 PM miosim has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19754
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 23 of 63 (446611)
01-06-2008 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by miosim
01-06-2008 1:52 PM


Thanks miosim for the reformatting.

To view these links you need MS word. I hope, you do not have problem with that.

I use OpenOffice Suite - it reads MS documents just fine without lining Bill Gate's pockets.

I am not knowledgeable in the field of population genetics to judge correctness of Vigen Geodakyan’s theories.

It's not the population genetics that I have a problem with (yet), rather it is the unfounded assertions and blatant falsehoods. One that struck me was this one:

quote:
Much more important is the qualitative feature: in the asexual method no new quality appears, whereas in each instance of the sexual reproduction new qualities appear which are different from the parental ones.

This is just plain false. Mutations occur in both asexual and sexual species and copy errors during cell reproduction also occur in both kinds of organisms.

For example, if males are bigger than the females, then there is an evolutionary tendency for size to increase in the species. In the other case, if males are smaller than females, the species evolves to have smaller specimens.

Sorry. That's

See Cope's rule

quote:
In evolutionary biology, Cope's rule states that population lineages tend to increase body size over geological time.

Also, I notice a dearth of evidence that would validate his points. To prove his point he would need to show actual examples of compliance with Cope's Rule and that all the species involved had larger males than females, AND that counter examples to Cope's Rule all involved species with smaller males than females. The problem is that many species are the same size between males and females yet they will increase or decrease in body size over time in response to ecological constraints.

We may conjecture that humans are becoming taller at this stage of history, because an average man is taller than an average woman (Fig. 5). ... The anthropologists and entomologists believe this is the case: mankind is growing … “

Due to better nutrition and health, and they went through a period in the middle of the dark ages when they were smaller than modern humans and smaller than Romans, yet the females are consistently smaller than the males (it's called sexual dimorphism).

Also I am opposing indiscriminate use of methodology of Supreme Purpose that Vigen Geodakyan’s employed at full extend.

Yet you use arguments based on it? Arguments that are invalid? You need a better source of information.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : added to quotes


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by miosim, posted 01-06-2008 1:52 PM miosim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by miosim, posted 01-06-2008 10:25 PM RAZD has responded

  
miosim
Member (Idle past 3750 days)
Posts: 57
From: NH, USA
Joined: 04-07-2007


Message 24 of 63 (446679)
01-06-2008 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by RAZD
01-06-2008 6:12 PM


RASD,

So, the quote below (even this is a middle school level biology) struck you ...

Much more important is the qualitative feature: in the asexual method no new quality appears, whereas in each instance of the sexual reproduction new qualities appear which are different from the parental ones.

...because you think ...

This is just plain false. Mutations occur in both asexual and sexual species and copy errors during cell reproduction also occur in both kinds of organisms

... even mutations have no relevance to above quote.

And then you reject this:

For example, if males are bigger than the females, then there is an evolutionary tendency for size to increase in the species. In the other case, if males are smaller than females, the species evolves to have smaller specimens.

Because of quote from Wickipedia:

In evolutionary biology, Cope's rule states that population lineages tend to increase body size over geological time.

while the complete quote is:

In evolutionary biology, Cope's rule states that population lineages tend to increase body size over geological time. It is named for Edward Drinker Cope. The horse family, Equidae, is often used to illustrate the rule, with small animals evolving into larger ones; but critics such as Stephen Jay Gould point out a number of shortcomings of this example.

I am confused, probably because I do not have the solid foundation in Biology. If you found that Geodakyan’s theory is false, it is fine with me. I have no intention to study Geodakyan’s theories in detailes to defend him.

Now I’m looking forward to hear your criticism about my hypothesis.

Edited by miosim, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by RAZD, posted 01-06-2008 6:12 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by molbiogirl, posted 01-06-2008 11:29 PM miosim has responded
 Message 26 by molbiogirl, posted 01-06-2008 11:32 PM miosim has not yet responded
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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 714 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 25 of 63 (446698)
01-06-2008 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by miosim
01-06-2008 10:25 PM


...but critics such as Stephen Jay Gould point out a number of shortcomings of this example.

And Dr. Gould has been shown to be wrong in this instance.

'Bigger Is Better' View of Evolution Gains Credence
New York Times, December 28, 2004

The notion that natural selection can create long-term trends toward large size first emerged about a century ago, but it fell out of favor in recent decades. Now researchers have taken a fresh look at the question with new methods, and some argue that these trends are real.

Dr. Stephen Jay Gould, the eminent Harvard paleontologist who died in 2002, dismissed Cope's rule as a "psychological artifact."

An apparent trend toward bigger sizes could appear in the fossil record, Dr. Gould and others pointed out, even if natural selection didn't favor bigger individuals. Small species, for example, might simply be more likely to survive mass extinctions. If they then gave rise to new species that were randomly bigger or smaller, they would still produce a trend toward larger sizes. That is because their descendants could not get much smaller before hitting a minimum size limit.

These criticisms have prompted scientists to start putting Cope's rule to a much more rigorous test. They compare the size of ancestors to their descendants, or, at the very least, to very closely related species. They then make these measurements in many lineages in a given group to see if the trend is statistically significant.

Dr. Purvis and Mr. Hone are among the co-authors of a study of Cope's rule in dinosaurs to be published in The Journal of Evolutionary Biology. The researchers compared 65 pairs of related dinosaurs separated by tens of millions of years. They found that on average, the younger dinosaurs were 25 percent larger than the older ones. The pattern spanned all the major groups of dinosaurs, from bipedal predators to long-necked grazers.

"It's one of the few really thorough studies in this area, and it finds really convincing support for Cope's rule," said Dr. John Alroy, a paleontologist with the National Center for Ecological Analysis and Synthesis in Santa Barbara, Calif. Dr. Alroy's own research has revealed long-term increases in the size of North American mammals over the past 80 million years.

"We got a very clear pattern," Dr. Kingsolver said. "In 80 percent of the studies, there's consistent selection favoring larger size." As Dr. Kingsolver and Dr. Pfennig reported in the July issue of Evolution, the pattern held up within both vertebrates and invertebrates, as well as in plants.

http://www.carlzimmer.com/articles/2004.php?subaction=showfull&id=1177191253&archive=&start_from=&ucat=7


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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 714 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 26 of 63 (446699)
01-06-2008 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by miosim
01-06-2008 10:25 PM


Much more important is the qualitative feature: in the asexual method no new quality appears, whereas in each instance of the sexual reproduction new qualities appear which are different from the parental ones.

Two words.

Antibiotic. Resistance.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by miosim, posted 01-06-2008 10:25 PM miosim has not yet responded

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 714 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 27 of 63 (446700)
01-06-2008 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by miosim
01-03-2008 11:02 PM


The double strand DNA molecule contains one DNA strand inherited from the parental DNA strand and one newly synthesized. Both strands carry genetic information, however, according to my hypothesis, only one of them - newly synthesized strand is genetically active in the double stranded DNA molecule, while another strand is blocked from transcription.

This is clearly untrue.

An allele that is present on one strand and not on the other is expressed.


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miosim
Member (Idle past 3750 days)
Posts: 57
From: NH, USA
Joined: 04-07-2007


Message 28 of 63 (446701)
01-06-2008 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by molbiogirl
01-06-2008 11:29 PM


molbiogirl,

Thank you for this crush course.


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miosim
Member (Idle past 3750 days)
Posts: 57
From: NH, USA
Joined: 04-07-2007


Message 29 of 63 (446707)
01-06-2008 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by miosim
01-06-2008 11:40 PM


miosim:
The double strand DNA molecule contains one DNA strand inherited from the parental DNA strand and one newly synthesized. Both strands carry genetic information, however, according to my hypothesis, only one of them - newly synthesized strand is genetically active in the double stranded DNA molecule, while another strand is blocked from transcription.

molbiogirl:
This is clearly untrue.
An allele that is present on one strand and not on the other is expressed.

molbiogirl,
I do not see contradiction between me and you. Can you please clarify.


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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 714 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 30 of 63 (446713)
01-07-2008 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by miosim
01-06-2008 11:55 PM


If an allele (a gene) is present on one strand of DNA and not on the other strand of DNA, that gene can be expressed phenotypically.

For example, if one inherits an A allele from one parent and a B allele from the other, then your blood type will be AB, because both alleles are expressed.


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