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Author Topic:   Timing of Various Eves and Adams
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6048 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 31 of 54 (269344)
12-14-2005 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by johnfolton
12-14-2005 5:34 PM


Re: Several questions
Natural Selection in sexual subjected mutated DNA is self correcting to the 10th generation in protected gene pools. This how breeders purge out defective genes in a new breed.
This is called "inbreeding", and it effectively removes genetic heterogeneity, resulting in an extremely homogeneous population with little genetic variation (like a dog breed).
Inbreeding is NOT "mutated DNA self correcting", though. It is breeders selecting for genes they do and don't want during the inbreeding. The breeders are doing the "correcting" - it is not an instrisic property of the DNA.
Truly, breeders are NOT "purging out defective genes", they are usually selecting FOR them - which is why you don't see packs of feral dachsunds roaming the countryside - dachsunds have been selectively bred for genes that are detrimental to their survival in the wild.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by johnfolton, posted 12-14-2005 5:34 PM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 37 by johnfolton, posted 12-14-2005 6:28 PM pink sasquatch has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 54 (269355)
12-14-2005 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by pink sasquatch
12-14-2005 6:00 PM


Re: Several questions
which is why you don't see packs of feral dachsunds roaming the countryside
Maybe in your countryside. But around here that's a real problem.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5617 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 33 of 54 (269356)
12-14-2005 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Wounded King
12-14-2005 5:47 PM


Re: Several questions
Wounded King, The point is the African Eve was dated by an assumed rate of mutations. If natural selection is not correcting these asexual mutations within the gene pool then they are accumulative.
Artificial breeding does take advantage of natural selections ability to purge genetic diseases out of the breed. Natural selection is not able to purge accumulative mutations out of asexual celluar parts like michondrial Eve.
Accelerated mutations in Michondrial Eve actually is supporting the creationists beliefs that African Eve is only 6,000 years old.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 34 of 54 (269357)
12-14-2005 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
12-14-2005 4:21 PM


Re: Don't know if this will help
When I returned home last night I had a pocket full of change. It was a random collection of change from purchases made during the day. That is mutation.
Cute but I don't see any mutation here. No nickels turned into plugged nickels, no dimes turned into hyperdimes or pseudodimes or whatever. No, this is simple phylogeographic shuffling, by which one portion of a population departed from another into new climes or banks, and/or some were added by migration as well, producing new proportions of metals and denominations (alleles as it were), demonstrating the famous change in "allelic" frequencies that supposedly defines evolution. But in all this there is no mutation at all.
After I selected all the pennies and put them in the penny jar I was left with a pile of change that contained no pennies. That is mutation after being filtered by Natural Selection.
Yes, cute example of natural selection, but still no mutation. What was selected from was merely the given array of possibilities, with nothing new added.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-14-2005 06:24 PM

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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6048 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 35 of 54 (269358)
12-14-2005 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by johnfolton
12-14-2005 6:20 PM


selection operates on "asexual" DNA
Natural selection is not able to purge accumulative mutations out of asexual celluar parts like michondrial Eve.
Natural selection operates upon both "sexual" and "asexual" DNA. If a beneficial/neutral/detrimental mutation arises in the mitochondrial DNA, selection will act accordingly.
Bacteria are asexual. You do realize that natural selection operates upon mutations in bacteria?

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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6048 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 36 of 54 (269360)
12-14-2005 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
12-14-2005 6:20 PM


Re: Several questions
Another reason for me to stay out of Texas - I like my ankles intact!

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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5617 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 37 of 54 (269361)
12-14-2005 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by pink sasquatch
12-14-2005 6:00 PM


Re: Several questions
I hear you, they are breeding the breed. The 10 generation rule simply means defective genes are not usually expressed after 10 generations in controlled gene pools. I agree, inbreeding is the negative side of natural selection.
I've no problem with accumulative mutations occurring in bacteria. I just pray the bird flu doesn't mutate our way.
This message has been edited by The Golfer, 12-14-2005 06:31 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by pink sasquatch, posted 12-14-2005 6:00 PM pink sasquatch has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 54 (269362)
12-14-2005 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
12-14-2005 6:22 PM


Re: Don't know if this will help
Yes, cute example of natural selection, but still no mutation. What was selected from was merely the given array of possibilities, with nothing new added.
The coins were a random collection. The filter selected all the pennies.
Same thing little one. The Theory of Evolution never claims that nickles become plugged nickles; that's simply more of the willfull ignorance of Biblical Creationists.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 12-14-2005 6:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 12-14-2005 6:38 PM jar has replied
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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6048 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 39 of 54 (269364)
12-14-2005 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by johnfolton
12-14-2005 6:28 PM


SELECTION across 10 generations, not just "10 generations"
The 10 generation rule simply means defective genes are not usually expressed after 10 generations in controlled gene pools.
Sorry, you simply do not understand the "10 generation rule".
The "10 generation rule" is ONLY that the population is genetically homogeneous (inbred) after 10 generations. Nothing else.
SELECTION during breeding determines which genes are "expressed" after ten generations, not the breeding regime itself. Being shaped like a sausage is the result of genes that would be considered "defective" under natural selection; yet breeders select for these defective genes for 10 generations to get to dachsunds...
"10 generations" does absolutely nothing to the expression of defective genes. SELECTION during those "10 generations" determines the ultimate genetic makeup of the population.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 40 of 54 (269365)
12-14-2005 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
12-14-2005 6:33 PM


Re: Don't know if this will help
Yes, the array of possibilities is always found in random collections.

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 Message 38 by jar, posted 12-14-2005 6:33 PM jar has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 41 of 54 (269366)
12-14-2005 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
12-14-2005 6:33 PM


Re: Don't know if this will help
The money represents alleles. There were two selections here, no mutations. Geographic or migration selected first, but this included probably not only a selection but a recombination. In any case there was a new COLLECTION of alleles when you got home than the collection you had when you went out. This is what happens to alleles in populations. The frequences have changed, but not the alleles themselves. Mutation has not happened, merely the shuffling of given alleles. Then natural selection selected the pennies out, further altering the frequencies in the population, rather drastically. No mutation at any point, merely the usual shuffling of alleles and shifting of frequencies.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-14-2005 06:49 PM

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 54 (269367)
12-14-2005 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by pink sasquatch
12-14-2005 5:52 PM


just one more question, Pink
What is the relationship between the term "gene" and the term "receptor"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by pink sasquatch, posted 12-14-2005 5:52 PM pink sasquatch has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 419 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 43 of 54 (269369)
12-14-2005 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
12-14-2005 6:38 PM


Re: Don't know if this will help
The analogy is really not that far off. DNA is made of four different nucleotides, A, T, C and G. How they are arranged is what determines the sequence. Mutations do not create new nucleotides, you never see a q created or a Y, they just change the arrangements. It's like having pennies, nickles, dimes and quarters and arranging them in different patterns. There are a few rules, you have to pair quarters with dimes and pennies with nickles.
How you arrange the coins can be anything possible, and the random availability of whatever change you get each day is the only limitation on what arrangements can be made.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 40 by Faith, posted 12-14-2005 6:38 PM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 44 of 54 (269371)
12-14-2005 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
12-14-2005 6:51 PM


Re: Don't know if this will help
The analogy is really not that far off. DNA is made of four different nucleotides, A, T, C and G. How they are arranged is what determines the sequence. Mutations do not create new nucleotides, you never see a q created or a Y, they just change the arrangements. It's like having pennies, nickles, dimes and quarters and arranging them in different patterns. There are a few rules, you have to pair quarters with dimes and pennies with nickles.
How you arrange the coins can be anything possible, and the random availability of whatever change you get each day is the only limitation on what arrangements can be made.
The money in your hand does not in any way represent such a situation as the changes in the arrangement of the nucleotides. And if it did your example of natural selection would not apply as NS does not remove one nucleotide from the arrangement.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-14-2005 07:25 PM

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U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 4978 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 45 of 54 (269567)
12-15-2005 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by johnfolton
12-14-2005 9:55 AM


Re: confusing separate issues
Non-Kosher foods causing mutations is more in the christian holistic movement. There concerned about the heavy metals in respect to mutations. Heres a link about the clean verses the unclean creatures.
http://godkind.org/clean-foods.html
It shouldn't be surprising that a vast amount of the world's food supplies are unclean foods. From a scientific standpoint, you can support the issue of a food being "unclean." Most of the unclean foods can be demonstrated to be, literally, unclean.
Most of these foods are considered to be "scavenger" animals that eat the wastes of other animals, and help to clean up the environment. Lobster, shrimp, shell fish and other water scavengers contain high levels of heavy metals. Pigs, as you well know, scavenge the land and will eat literally anything they come into contact with.
The issue here, however, isn't whether we can prove whether or not the unclean creatures listed in the Bible are, in scientific fact, "unclean," but whether we are willing to believe what God tells us, along with everything else He has told us through the pages of the Bible. We can't reject what we don't like or don't agree with.
Whether or not God labelled some foods clean and others not is immaterial. But i find it hard to believe that that whole reasoning behind the kosher diet is to prevent mutations from occurring. Where in the OT does it speak of heavy metals causing mutation?
The mutagenicity of heavy metals still doesn't change things much. Even with a higher mutation rate, you're still not gonna get a coalescence date of 6000yrs. If the mutation rate in humans was that high, i'd expect humanity to have been wiped out pretty quick due to genetic disease.
What this all means is that mutations are not random things, but related to heavy metals in the diet.
you seem to misunderstand the use of the word "random". It is well known that external sources are able to generate mutations (eg. irradiation, xenobiotics, even heavy metals). It is the location of the mutation that is random.
Mutations, however, do not only occur due to external influence. The metabolism of an organism can also cause mutations, through the production of reactive oxygen species, or even due to errors in the replication mechanisms; the body's systems, while highly accurate, are not perfect.
This all supports that life is devolving, as mutations are not an increase in information.
This just shows that you don't have a proper grasp of how the genetic code works. The thing is, most mutations, even ones occurring within coding regions, are not harmful.
This is due to the redundancy of the genetic code. i'm sure you know that genes (DNA) codes for amino acid chains which form proteins. A single amino acid is coded for by a three base "codon" of DNA. There are 64 three-base combinations of the four DNA bases, A, C ,T, and G.
There are only approximately 20 amino acids (or 22 or thereabouts, i can't recall the exact number). This means that most of the amino acids are coded for by more than one codon.
So a mutation often doesn't result in an amino acid change. But i digress.
In respect to Michondrial Eve the mutations are only accumulative not self correcting because its not a sharing of genetic information.
You seem to think that mitochondrial genes are not under natural selection. i don't quite understand why. As WK mentioned the genes coded for by the mitochondrial genome (mtDNA) are important for celluar respiration i.e energy production. Any organism with severe problems of the energy production pathway will not last long, or at least be severely impaired.
if you don't understand how the inheritance of mitochondria works, then ask and i will explain.
You must realise this, however; most dates gotten from DNA are often taken from a region not under natural selection. This is because natural selection messes around with mutation rates, and so the clearest picture is gained from a region that is not subject to selection.
The dating of mitochondrial Eve was done on the D-loop of the mtDNA i.e the two control regions. These regions are not subject to selection and are thus hypervariable i.e rapidly mutating.
Accelerated mutations in Michondrial Eve actually is supporting the creationists beliefs that African Eve is only 6,000 years old.
while the mutation rate of mtDNA is much higher than genomic DNA, its still not that fast.

So intimate that your hand upon my chest is my hand,
so intimate that when I fall asleep it is your eyes that close.
- Pablo Neruda

This message is a reply to:
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