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Author Topic:   Evolution and complexity
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 89 of 113 (408715)
07-04-2007 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Simonsays
07-02-2007 8:56 PM


For every selective pressure there is eventually an equal...
...and opposite selective pressure...
Now The coffee and the surrounding air differentially absorb this microwave energy. That is the selectivepressure. Now, since they are at different temperatures, heat begins to flows again.Then changes in allele frequency happen again to the population(they continue to evolve)( Result-no stasis)
If there is no physical constraints, the coffee could theoretically get hotter and hotter for ever. That doesn't happen of course, eventually the energy going into the microwave would equal the energy going out of the microwave. Eventually the coffee will vapourize. Physical constraints will mean that a stasis point will be reached - even as the mechanism that gave selective pressure remains the same. Other selective pressures will start to push in the opposite directions until the the two pressures cancel each other out and we get stasis.
At some point during stasis we could remove one of the selective pressures, and then stasis would likewise go. For example, if we increased the pressure within the microwave sufficiently we could force the coffee back into a puddle of coffee on the microwave floor and we can continue heating it as a 'cup' of coffee. If we shielded the microwave better we could heat the coffee vapour up. If we turn the microwave off the stasis would be removed and the coffee would cool and condense (the pressure to equalize temperature with the rest of the universe would overcome the now non-existent pressure to warm the coffee up).
This is the best way to take the analogy for evolution purposes: since selective pressures can drive a population to running faster, but eventually other selective pressures start preventing the population from attaining any more speed (animals have to save energy for things other than running fast or they will die without reproduction). Remove the pressure for running fast (turn the microwave off) and the population will probably begin to slow, using its resources for other things. Remove the need to spend energy on other ventures (increase the pressure in the microwave) and the population may continue to increase in speed.
I realize that I've simplified. Coffee is dissolved in water so it isn't the coffee that will be vapourized for example (unless its one hell of a microwave oven!), but I trust you'll see the spirit in which the analogy was considered.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Simonsays, posted 07-02-2007 8:56 PM Simonsays has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 111 of 113 (409910)
07-12-2007 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Simonsays
06-26-2007 3:25 PM


the warrant and evolution
I think Percy thinks he has a warrant with his thermal equilibrium (potential energy) model. But I will show in my coming reply to him where I think he misses the mark.
Selective pressures can cause change if the net pressure to change is positive or negative (data).
Selective pressures can be equal and opposite at which point they effectively cancel each other out. (warrant)
As change occurs, the strength of opposing selective pressures can increase (warrant)
Conclusion: Change can continue occurring until the strength of the opposing selective pressures become equal and opposite. At this point the net pressure to change is neither positive nor negative so change does not occur. When change does not occur it is called stasis. Removing, changing or adding a selective pressure could lead to the net pressure being nonzero and thus lead to change.
1.) Ideal genomes don't exist in nature. Dwise one seemed to understand that when he qualified it in one or two of his postings... Then he went back to an ideal genome with one set point. I believe for any given enviroment there are so many workable gene and trait conbinations that the use of ideal genome is meaningless/inapplicable.
No - but evolution isn't about ideal genomes, it's about populations moving towards an evolutionarily stable state. Populations probably never achieve a perfectly evolutionarily stable state but from generation to generation they jump around this state and the average is the evolutionarily stable state. It doesn't help that in the real world what the stable state actually is changes with each generation either. However, the stable state itself can find itself quite stable, hovering around an average as it were. And so we end up with a multidimensional model of population change.
We call this hovering about 'stasis' since no generally observable change is happening when considered over many generations.
2.) Negative feedback mechanisms are specific/limited. I don't think Dwise1 or anyone else has shown/identified a general negative feedback mechanism.
Look at a jungle or dense forest. There is a clear pressure towards driving trees to be tall - they need the sunlight and other trees might block some of that. However, there is a pressure against being too tall. Being too tall gives rise to stability issues, and nutrient transport issues. The taller a tree, the less stable and the more difficult it is to get nutrients from the ground to the topmost. The advantage of getting all the sunlight a tree needs is pitted against the disadvantage of getting nutrients and being upright. Eventually the disadvantage of getting taller will outweigh the advantage of getting taller and this stabilises things.
If a population of trees is a too tall on average the next generation will be less tall. If too short, the next generation will be taller. There may well be an evolutionarily stable state of some tall trees and some short trees. The iterated prisonner's dilemma can give some more insight into ESS (examine the Monte Carlo conclusions)
I think most evolutionists equate Evolution withchange That's how it is refered to in every dictionary I looked at...and in the thesauruses too (Evolution is not synomynous with adaption). Nowhere is it equated with adaptation. Adaptation is listed as an aspect of evolution, but that's it...Development and progressive change were common terms used there.
Evolution is hereditary change in a population over generations. Natural selection is a mechanism that gives rise to change that is adaptive. If we could remove natural selection we would not have adaptation but we would still have evolution. Since it is not possible to remove natural selection - evolution and adaptation go hand in hand of course. Evolution is not synonymous with adaptation however...more adaptation is the result of evolution because of natural selection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Simonsays, posted 06-26-2007 3:25 PM Simonsays has not replied

  
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