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Author Topic:   "Best" evidence for evolution.
Faith
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Posts: 35114
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 601 of 652 (873688)
03-18-2020 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 600 by caffeine
03-18-2020 3:34 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution -
Yes I think all birds should be regarded as a species, and all the different kinds of birds as subspecies or varieties. I think that reflects the original creation most clearly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 600 by caffeine, posted 03-18-2020 3:34 PM caffeine has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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caffeine
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Posts: 1787
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 602 of 652 (873690)
03-18-2020 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 599 by Faith
03-18-2020 3:30 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
An increase in homozygosity at different loci could cause such problems.

How?


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 Message 599 by Faith, posted 03-18-2020 3:30 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
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Posts: 16054
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 603 of 652 (873692)
03-18-2020 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 597 by Faith
03-18-2020 3:18 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution -
quote:
It's not all that hard to place organisms into their rightful morphological camps, which I think should be called Species.

I think that it is easy for you to choose groupings you like. To do so objectively and claim that these “morphological camps” are absolutely distinct is much harder - in fact rendered impossible by the nested hierarchy and the anatomical intermediates found in the fossil record.

quote:
This idea that the species all blur together is an artifact of the ToE.

The actual idea - that species are too fuzzy to allow for a clear-cut definition is a fact. It is a fact that supports the theory of evolution, so I can see why you’d object to it. Unfortunately for you, your likes and dislikes don’t change the truth.


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PaulK
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Posts: 16054
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 604 of 652 (873696)
03-18-2020 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 601 by Faith
03-18-2020 3:37 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution -
quote:
Yes I think all birds should be regarded as a species

How unBiblical of you. Didn’t Noah release both a Raven and a dove from the Ark ? Surely you have to count corvids and columbidae as separate kinds!


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 Message 601 by Faith, posted 03-18-2020 3:37 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7445
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 605 of 652 (873705)
03-18-2020 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 597 by Faith
03-18-2020 3:18 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution -
Faith writes:

Oh nonsense. It's not all that hard to place organisms into their rightful morphological camps,

You do make me laugh. When have you ever tried to do that Faith?

which I think should be called Species.

I'm sure Nature will be interested in your considered paper.

The difficulties are fairly rare really.

You haven't the faintest idea. You're the gal that thinks trilobites are all one species.

This idea that the species all blur together is an artifact of the ToE.

It's got fuck all to do with the ToE. it existed before the ToE.

Without that interference it is not all that hard to classify creatures.

That would be why biologists fight over it daily I guess.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by Faith, posted 03-18-2020 3:18 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 606 by Faith, posted 03-18-2020 5:20 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35114
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 606 of 652 (873708)
03-18-2020 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 605 by Tangle
03-18-2020 4:51 PM


Taxonomic classification
Yeah I don't think Linnaeus got it all right either. He split the birds into species where I would make them all one species for instance. Unless a term like "Family" should be used the way I use Species I don't see any need for any taxonomic categories other than Species and Subspecies.

And yes I do think trilobites are all one species. I consider a species to be the original created Kind by the way. I think it should be possible to determine it morphologically.

It preceded the ToE but the confusions are now because of the ToE. IMHO.

I haven't tried to sort through all the categories but I did ponder the Linnaean system fairly recently. Maybe you missed it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 607 by Tangle, posted 03-18-2020 5:54 PM Faith has responded
 Message 609 by PaulK, posted 03-18-2020 6:03 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7445
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 607 of 652 (873712)
03-18-2020 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 606 by Faith
03-18-2020 5:20 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Faith writes:

I did ponder the Linnaean system fairly recently.

You crease me up, you really do. Bigly. Utterly clueless.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 606 by Faith, posted 03-18-2020 5:20 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 608 by Faith, posted 03-18-2020 5:55 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35114
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 608 of 652 (873713)
03-18-2020 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 607 by Tangle
03-18-2020 5:54 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
You said I hadn't given any thought to it, and I answered that have. I think you forgot the context.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 607 by Tangle, posted 03-18-2020 5:54 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 610 by Tangle, posted 03-18-2020 6:13 PM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16054
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 609 of 652 (873714)
03-18-2020 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 606 by Faith
03-18-2020 5:20 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
quote:
And yes I do think trilobites are all one species. I consider a species to be the original created Kind by the way. I think it should be possible to determine it morphologically.

It isn’t. Taxonomy was part of the evidence for evolution.

quote:
It preceded the ToE but the confusions are now because of the ToE. IMHO.

No, the confusions are there in nature. I guess you are going to have to put most of biology into your “not science because it contradicts Faith” category. While you go on claiming that you aren’t anti-science.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 606 by Faith, posted 03-18-2020 5:20 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7445
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 610 of 652 (873715)
03-18-2020 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 608 by Faith
03-18-2020 5:55 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Faith writes:

You said I hadn't given any thought to it, and I answered that have.

You haven't the first idea what is actually involved in classifying organisms. You have no training whatsoever in the subject and think that you can just pontificate from your armchair without so much as touching a life form let alone learning its taxonomy. Real scientists can spend their entire lives studying a small number of taxa, if only they knew that you could do it simply by decree.

It must be a huge shock to you that you are also not managing to change our entire understanding of geology - your ego, ignorance and delusion is astonishing.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by Faith, posted 03-18-2020 5:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 611 by Faith, posted 03-18-2020 7:44 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35114
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 611 of 652 (873718)
03-18-2020 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 610 by Tangle
03-18-2020 6:13 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
True, I don't think it's as hard as they make it out to be, except in a few very difficult cases. To split birds into separate species is really indefensible because they are so easily identified as birds, there's not much difficulty there. Penguins and ostriches might be a problem but isn't it a very birdy-looking bird Linnaeus made into a separate species?

Yeah I guess it does look easier to me than they claim.

As for trilobites, THEY are the ones who named the weirdest looking ones "trilobite" and since I can see why I just collapse them into one Species.

Yes I'm a very astonishing person, I agree.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 610 by Tangle, posted 03-18-2020 6:13 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 612 by dwise1, posted 03-18-2020 11:07 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 614 by PaulK, posted 03-19-2020 1:12 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 615 by Tangle, posted 03-19-2020 4:41 AM Faith has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4057
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 612 of 652 (873735)
03-18-2020 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 611 by Faith
03-18-2020 7:44 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Yes I'm a very astonishing person, I agree.

It is not a good thing for everybody to stare at you pointing, mouths agape in astonishment.

From The Princess Bride:

quote:
Prince Humperdinck: That may be the first time in my life a man has dared insult me.

Westley: It won't be the last. To the pain means the first thing you will lose will be your feet below the ankles. Then your hands at the wrists. Next your nose.

Prince Humperdinck: And then my tongue I suppose, I killed you too quickly the last time. A mistake I don't mean to duplicate tonight.

Westley: I wasn't finished. The next thing you will lose will be your left eye followed by your right.

Prince Humperdinck: And then my ears, I understand let's get on with it.

Westley: WRONG. Your ears you keep and I'll tell you why. So that every shriek of every child at seeing your hideousness will be yours to cherish. Every babe that weeps at your approach, every woman who cries out, "Dear God! What is that thing," will echo in your perfect ears. That is what "to the pain means." It means I leave you in anguish, wallowing in freakish misery forever.


And so we point at you, our mouths agape in astonishment, crying out, "Dear God! What is that thing?"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 611 by Faith, posted 03-18-2020 7:44 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Meddle
Member
Posts: 178
From: Scotland
Joined: 05-08-2006


(2)
Message 613 of 652 (873736)
03-19-2020 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 580 by Faith
03-17-2020 6:27 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
it can't be mutations because at the rate you impute to them there would never be a stable population at all, it would always be mutating into something else, but we have lots of phenotypically stable populations, especially daughter populations after a series of splits. Like domestic breeds in many cases.

Just to add to what’s already been said, you also have to remember that the selective pressures which initially moulded the phenotype of a population will continue to act on it, so as new mutations occur they they will also be subjected to these same selective pressures and so maintain a phenotypically stable population. Therefore, just because many mutations occur in each generation, this does not translate into the population always mutating into something else.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by Faith, posted 03-17-2020 6:27 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16054
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 614 of 652 (873737)
03-19-2020 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 611 by Faith
03-18-2020 7:44 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
quote:
True, I don't think it's as hard as they make it out to be, except in a few very difficult cases

Oh, but it is if you care about the truth. Objectively speaking where do. You draw the line between birds and dinosaurs ?

quote:
To split birds into separate species is really indefensible because they are so easily identified as birds, there's not much difficulty there.

Who could possibly notice the differences between a hummingbird and an ostrich ?

quote:
Yeah I guess it does look easier to me than they claim.

That’s because you’re not even trying to do it right.

quote:
As for trilobites, THEY are the ones who named the weirdest looking ones "trilobite" and since I can see why I just collapse them into one Species.

Yes, you can’t admit that your ignorance lead you into a foolish error.

quote:
Yes I'm a very astonishing person, I agree.

You’re certainly dedicated to your pride. But that doesn’t change the fact that you’re just ignorant and opinionated.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 611 by Faith, posted 03-18-2020 7:44 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7445
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 615 of 652 (873740)
03-19-2020 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 611 by Faith
03-18-2020 7:44 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Faith writes:

Yeah I guess it does look easier to me than they claim.

It's certainly easier to ignore all the obvious differences between, for example, an albatross a kiwi and a puffin and just call them birds. 'Oh look there's a bird!' At least everyone would be right.

It's infantile. Quite literally.

When my boy was small he called all insects bees. But even he noticed that spiders were different so he called them spider-bees. In his own taxonomy that made sense but it was a category error.

And when he saw a shrimp in a fish tank and called it a fish-bee because it looked like it was flying he called it a fish-bee. An even bigger taxonomical error.

Real scientists don't just make shit up like that, they study it in intricate detail to prevent those kind of silly mistakes.

You need to grow up and understand that just because YOU can look at a picture and make shit up in your head, by doing it you make yourself look really stupid. When my kid did it, it was cute, when a grown up does it, it's moronic.

Bird?

Bird?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 611 by Faith, posted 03-18-2020 7:44 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 616 by AZPaul3, posted 03-19-2020 9:45 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 617 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 9:55 AM Tangle has responded

  
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