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Author Topic:   "Best" evidence for evolution.
AZPaul3
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Posts: 4860
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 616 of 652 (873753)
03-19-2020 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 615 by Tangle
03-19-2020 4:41 AM


Re: Taxonomic classification

Fish-bird.

Rat-bird.

I'll just let myself out now.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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 Message 615 by Tangle, posted 03-19-2020 4:41 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 35114
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 617 of 652 (873756)
03-19-2020 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 615 by Tangle
03-19-2020 4:41 AM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Neither of your examples is a bird. Do I get an A?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 618 by Tangle, posted 03-19-2020 10:41 AM Faith has responded

  
Tangle
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Posts: 7445
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 618 of 652 (873765)
03-19-2020 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 617 by Faith
03-19-2020 9:55 AM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Faith writes:

Neither of your examples is a bird. Do I get an A?

Ok, now tell me how you know they're not birds


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 9:55 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 619 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 10:43 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 35114
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 619 of 652 (873766)
03-19-2020 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 618 by Tangle
03-19-2020 10:41 AM


Re: Taxonomic classification
They don't have the morphology of birds, didn't I say that's the criterion? They don't have the shape, the head, the beak, the feathers, the kind of wings etc etc etc. I already discussed birds somewhere.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by Tangle, posted 03-19-2020 10:41 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 620 by Tangle, posted 03-19-2020 12:29 PM Faith has responded

  
Tangle
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Posts: 7445
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 620 of 652 (873781)
03-19-2020 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 619 by Faith
03-19-2020 10:43 AM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Faith writes:

They don't have the morphology of birds, didn't I say that's the criterion? They don't have the shape, the head, the beak, the feathers, the kind of wings etc etc etc. I already discussed birds somewhere.

Right so you're developing a taxonomy based on morphology which is how the Victorians did it and it's pretty much still intact - DNA proving much of it correct, but quite a lot not and resolving some arcane arguments between taxonomists that had run for generations.

So what's your problem with them carrying on to the species level - identifying groups based on morphological differences? That's all it is, noticing that Ostriches are different to Penguins but that they have a key similarity that make them birds - feathers. No other animal group has feathers.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 619 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 10:43 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 621 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 3:34 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 35114
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 621 of 652 (873795)
03-19-2020 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 620 by Tangle
03-19-2020 12:29 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
I wouldn't have a problem with the basic method. except I discovered on the Linnaean chart a couple of categories I thought were wrong, separating out the thrush as if it were some special species of bird from all the other birds or something like that being one such instance that didn't seem to make any sense. And of course as a Creationist I don't put the creatures in Families above the Species, or I would make the Family the equivalent of the Species, but worse than that Linnaeus puts creatures in Families that are entirely different Kinds in my thinking from the Species he arranges beneath the Family. Something like that. The point is that I don't object to the basic idea but I do object to some of the specifics I found on his chart.

It would be a big project but some time I could try to go through the whole Linnean chart to compare it with how I understand the Kinds. TGhere would certainly be some creatures I'm not familiar with so I could only go so far with it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by Tangle, posted 03-19-2020 12:29 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 622 by PaulK, posted 03-19-2020 3:57 PM Faith has responded
 Message 625 by Tangle, posted 03-19-2020 4:13 PM Faith has responded
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PaulK
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Posts: 16054
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 622 of 652 (873798)
03-19-2020 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 621 by Faith
03-19-2020 3:34 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
quote:
I wouldn't have a problem with the basic method. except I discovered on the Linnaean chart a couple of categories I thought were wrong, separating out the thrush as if it were some special species of bird from all the other birds or something like that being one such instance that didn't seem to make any sense.

Thrushes are a taxonomic family, with a worldwide distribution. The American Robin is a thrush. Bluebirds are thrushes. The Turdus genus alone has 84 recognised species!

quote:
And of course as a Creationist I don't put the creatures in Families above the Species, or I would make the Family the equivalent of the Species, but worse than that Linnaeus puts creatures in Families that are entirely different Kinds in my thinking from the Species he arranges beneath the Family.

That’s funny when Linnaeus is claimed as one of the great Creationist scientists. But if you equate species with family the thrushes are one of your “species”. Which is just pointless redefinition to confuse the issue, but I guess you haven’t anything better.

Linnaeus wasn’t right about everything - he thought that sloths belonged with the primates, but I wouldn’t bet on him being wrong just because he disagreed with your opinions. As we can see.


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 Message 621 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 3:34 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 623 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 4:01 PM PaulK has responded
 Message 626 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 4:20 PM PaulK has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 35114
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 623 of 652 (873799)
03-19-2020 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 622 by PaulK
03-19-2020 3:57 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Making the thrush into a separate family separates it from other birds that seem to have all the same morphological characteristics. If not, what is the difference?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 622 by PaulK, posted 03-19-2020 3:57 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
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Posts: 16054
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 624 of 652 (873800)
03-19-2020 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 623 by Faith
03-19-2020 4:01 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
quote:
Making the thrush into a separate family separates it from other birds that seem to have all the same morphological characteristics.

Which are those? Examples please. I can say that the turdus thrushes I am familiar with (5 species) are all very similar in build and shape - and plumage tends to be similar, too. I can tell they are related - the American Robin is another - this picture of a juvenile just shouts “thrush” at me (looks quite a bit like a redwing). They are easily distinguished from, most of the other garden birds. With a poor view (and without noting gait) I suppose a male blackbird could be mistaken for the similar-sized starling (especially amongst a bunch of starlings) but that’s about it.

Differences in size, shape, gait, call and song all add up.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
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Posts: 7445
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 625 of 652 (873801)
03-19-2020 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 621 by Faith
03-19-2020 3:34 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Faith writes:

I wouldn't have a problem with the basic method.

I can hear the world of biology breathe a collective sigh of relief.

except I discovered on the Linnaean chart a couple of categories I thought were wrong,

Well fuck me, did you alert the Royal Society?

And of course as a Creationist I don't put the creatures in Families above the Species, or I would make the Family the equivalent of the Species, but worse than that Linnaeus puts creatures in Families that are entirely different Kinds in my thinking from the Species he arranges beneath the Family. Something like that. The point is that I don't object to the basic idea but I do object to some of the specifics I found on his chart.

All irrelevant.

It would be a big project but some time I could try to go through the whole Linnean chart to compare it with how I understand the Kinds.

Yeh right. 'Big project' doesn't begin describe it. Currently we reckon there are about 8.7m species and thousands of scientists have been working on it for 200 years. But hey, you could make a start on beetles there's only third of a million of them.

There would certainly be some creatures I'm not familiar with

Ha ha …


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 3:34 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 627 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 4:21 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35114
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 626 of 652 (873802)
03-19-2020 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 622 by PaulK
03-19-2020 3:57 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
I've been looking for the chart I used before and I can't find it. It was very clear and easy to read and now I can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 622 by PaulK, posted 03-19-2020 3:57 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 628 by PaulK, posted 03-19-2020 4:48 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 35114
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 627 of 652 (873803)
03-19-2020 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 625 by Tangle
03-19-2020 4:13 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
I'm only interested in the Aves at the moment, what's your problem?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 625 by Tangle, posted 03-19-2020 4:13 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 630 by Tangle, posted 03-19-2020 5:16 PM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
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Posts: 16054
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 628 of 652 (873806)
03-19-2020 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 626 by Faith
03-19-2020 4:20 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
The listing in Wikipedia seems legible enough.

But if you can’t tell the difference between an American Robin and Northern Cardinal- to choose members of adjacent genera (within an order) - you have a problem.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 626 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 4:20 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 35114
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 629 of 652 (873808)
03-19-2020 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 628 by PaulK
03-19-2020 4:48 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Thanks but I need to find the chart I used before.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 628 by PaulK, posted 03-19-2020 4:48 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7445
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 630 of 652 (873809)
03-19-2020 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 627 by Faith
03-19-2020 4:21 PM


Re: Taxonomic classification
Faith writes:

I'm only interested in the Aves at the moment, what's your problem?

I guess my problem is trying to cope with your extreme ignorance combined with your extreme delusion. It's remarkably similar to Trump in its narcissism. I just can't work out how you got so sure of yourself without actually having the first clue.

I really wish you actually attempt some real study, you might develop a bit of humility and actually learn something. But we both know that you won't. Will you? You never do.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 627 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 4:21 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 631 by Faith, posted 03-19-2020 5:19 PM Tangle has responded

  
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