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Author Topic:   "Best" evidence for evolution.
Faith 
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From: Nevada, USA
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Message 691 of 759 (874977)
04-12-2020 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 689 by PaulK
04-12-2020 2:27 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
The features shared by all Mammals and Carnivora are not identical, they are similar, they may have the same function, but morphologically they are different.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 689 by PaulK, posted 04-12-2020 2:27 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 692 by PaulK, posted 04-12-2020 2:43 PM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
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Posts: 16188
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 692 of 759 (874978)
04-12-2020 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 691 by Faith
04-12-2020 2:36 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
quote:
The features shared by all Mammals and Carnivora are not identical, they are similar, they may have the same function, but morphologically they are different.

Really? Perhaps you can explain what you mean and tell me why you think that the features shared by canids are all “identical” and not “morphologically different”.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 691 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 2:36 PM Faith has responded

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 Message 693 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 2:45 PM PaulK has responded

  
Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 693 of 759 (874979)
04-12-2020 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 692 by PaulK
04-12-2020 2:43 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
The paw of all Canidae is identical as I am using the term. The paw of all Felidae is identical. The wing of all Aves is identical, that is it is built on the same kind of bone structure and it's festooned with the same kind of feathers though differently arranged and in different colors etc. Neither of these features will be found in any other group. That's what I'm working on anyway.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 692 by PaulK, posted 04-12-2020 2:43 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 694 by PaulK, posted 04-12-2020 2:54 PM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16188
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 694 of 759 (874980)
04-12-2020 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 693 by Faith
04-12-2020 2:45 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
quote:
The paw of all Canidae is identical as I am using the term

Which is meaningless unless you define the term.

quote:
Neither of these features will be found in any other group.

Which does not mean that the features used to define the broader groups are not “identical” as you use the term. Whatever that means.


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 Message 693 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 2:45 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 695 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 3:06 PM PaulK has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 695 of 759 (874981)
04-12-2020 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 694 by PaulK
04-12-2020 2:54 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
That's OK, I know what I mean, it's just a matter of getting the definition precise so even you might eventually know what I mean. I'm sure I'll have to make some adjustments but I've got the ballpark figured out.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 694 by PaulK, posted 04-12-2020 2:54 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 696 by PaulK, posted 04-12-2020 3:11 PM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16188
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 696 of 759 (874982)
04-12-2020 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 695 by Faith
04-12-2020 3:06 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
quote:
That's OK, I know what I mean, it's just a matter of getting the definition precise so even you might eventually know what I mean.

The sensible way would be to compare examples. But since we already know that you use inconsistent criteria to “support” pre-determine conclusions the suspicion that you will do so again is fully justified.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 695 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 3:06 PM Faith has responded

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 Message 697 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 3:14 PM PaulK has responded

  
Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 697 of 759 (874983)
04-12-2020 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 696 by PaulK
04-12-2020 3:11 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
If I really cared to prove anything to you I would make the great effort of trying to find examples. But I don't. And it does take a huge effort to find the right pictures for comparison.

ABE: You don't care about being fair, you don't care to try to understand what I'm getting at, all you want to do is find some way, any way will do, to debunk anything I'm saying. Anything.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 696 by PaulK, posted 04-12-2020 3:11 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 700 by PaulK, posted 04-12-2020 3:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16188
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 698 of 759 (874984)
04-12-2020 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 697 by Faith
04-12-2020 3:14 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
Well let us consider your own example of the bird’s wing. It is certainly not true that all bird’s wings are identical. There is considerable difference in size and shape and aerodynamics. (For instance I find it very easy to identify starlings in flight since their wing shape is quite distinctive compared to the other common birds around here).

So obviously you do not mean that bird’s wings are morphologically identical. But then how can you hope to rule out the features defining larger groups - when you were busy denying that those features even existed earlier today? Obviously you never considered it before.


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Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 699 of 759 (874985)
04-12-2020 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 661 by RAZD
04-11-2020 9:11 AM


Re: mosquitos
RAZD writes:

Faith writes:

Dogs wolves and coyotes can be identified as the same species by morphology. .

..
There are two populations of mosquitos, one carries malaria and the other doesn't. They don't interbreed
They're call cryptic species in biology.

I'd probably classify them as a Kind, or perhaps within a larger group of insects if I ever got into that area. Morphologically they are the same, that's the main criterion for the Kind/Species for me. Shape of body, form and number of legs, shape and function of proboscis.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 661 by RAZD, posted 04-11-2020 9:11 AM RAZD has responded

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16188
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 700 of 759 (874986)
04-12-2020 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 697 by Faith
04-12-2020 3:14 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
quote:
ABE: You don't care about being fair, you don't care to try to understand what I'm getting at, all you want to do is find some way, any way will do, to debunk anything I'm saying. Anything

Unlike you I do care about fairness, I do try to understand what you are getting at and I do care about getting it right, rather than finding some excuse.

And that is exactly what you hate.


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 Message 697 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 3:14 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 701 of 759 (874987)
04-12-2020 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 684 by RAZD
04-12-2020 7:05 AM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
Do you have access to actual specimens like Linnaeus had?

All I have is Google Image. Linnaeus' specimens were more useful but on the other hand the internet is jjust about miraculous for such purposes. Up to a point anyway. I can find dog footprints, wolf footprints, coyote footprints, fox footprints though I wanted to find good pictures of the actual paw and that I can't find although part of the problem is that my eyes are so bad. But the footprints are a very good start, certainly all the same Kind there.

Just wondering what data you are using.

Mostly my own memory of course. If I could get a grant from, say, Bill Gates, I'd hire someone to do all that for me.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 684 by RAZD, posted 04-12-2020 7:05 AM RAZD has responded

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Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 702 of 759 (874988)
04-12-2020 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 690 by PaulK
04-12-2020 2:33 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
Mechanical sorting by a huge volume of water of the sedimentary strata containing dead creatures is a lot more possible than the accumulation of such sedimentary strata over hundreds of millions of years which just happen to become the graveyard of a very specific set of dead creatures that just happened to fall into exactly the right conditions for fossilization though that is highly improbable and a very rare occurrence even in the best of circumstances. And repeat this rare occurrence every few hundred million years to boot.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 690 by PaulK, posted 04-12-2020 2:33 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 703 by PaulK, posted 04-12-2020 4:09 PM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16188
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 703 of 759 (874989)
04-12-2020 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 702 by Faith
04-12-2020 3:59 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
quote:
Mechanical sorting by a huge volume of water of the sedimentary strata containing dead creatures is a lot more possible than the accumulation of such sedimentary strata over hundreds of millions of years which just happen to become the graveyard of a very specific set of dead creatures that just happened to fall into exactly the right conditions for fossilization though that is highly improbable and a very rare occurrence even in the best of circumstances.

Mechanical sorting cannot produce the observed order. And let us not forget that trace fossils - such as dinosaur footprints - are consistent with the order of the remains.

There is no improbability in the accumulation of sedimentary strata over long periods of time. Sedimentation is an observed process.

Naturally the dead creatures in the sediment will be those that were alive around the time when the sediment was deposited. This explains the variety of fossils found in each period far better than any mechanical sorting.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 702 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 3:59 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 704 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 4:13 PM PaulK has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 704 of 759 (874990)
04-12-2020 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 703 by PaulK
04-12-2020 4:09 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
You know nothing about what's possible with mechanical sorting. And I've already explained all that about trace fossils. And no, sedimentation of the kind we see in the strata is NOT observed today. Give it up.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 703 by PaulK, posted 04-12-2020 4:09 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 705 by PaulK, posted 04-12-2020 4:19 PM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16188
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 705 of 759 (874991)
04-12-2020 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 704 by Faith
04-12-2020 4:13 PM


Re: Ordinary selection of built in variation is not species to species evolution
quote:
You know nothing about what's possible with mechanical sorting

Wrong. Not that it takes much to see that it isn’t possible, as thoroughly discussed in previous threads.

quote:
And I've already explained all that about trace fossils.

You have explained how you think they occurred but not why they fit into the ordering. Obviously they should not if the order was due to mechanical sorting.

quote:
And no sedimentation of the kind we see in the strata are NOT observed today.

That’s your opinion. It’s not an opinion shared by people who have seriously studied the matter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 704 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 4:13 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 707 by Faith, posted 04-12-2020 4:44 PM PaulK has responded

  
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